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Plane Crash Investigations
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Jul 1, 2019 17:35:46   #
JeffL Loc: New Jersey
 
Wingpilot wrote:
In law enforcement, we tend to avoid using the term, "accident," rather using the term "crash" or "collision" instead. The reason is that most of these events are not accidental in nature and could likely have been prevented had the driver(s) not been doing something reckless, illegal, negligent, or had properly maintained their vehicles. Even collisions with wild game, like deer, elk, moose, caribou, etc., aren't really accidental, even given the erratic actions of the animals, because it might be determined that the driver wasn't paying adequate attention to his/her environment at the time. And the same goes for aircraft crashes and other incidents. The sole exception might be an unexpected severe downdraft or microburst that's encountered on approach to landing, or on takeoff. When it comes to weather enroute, a wise pilot analyizes the weather situation and makes the decision to continue, detour or turn around and call it a day. Not very many accidents are actually accidental.
In law enforcement, we tend to avoid using the ter... (show quote)


I concur with almost all you wrote. I do take exception to the wild game inclusion. I live in NJ which has a huge deer population. One night on the way home, I counted over 20 along the roadways. I am extremely caution when in those areas where deer are prevalent. However, I came within inches of nailing a buck that flew across the road in front of me. Only serendipity saved me that night. Situational awareness didn't save me. Sheer luck did.

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Jul 1, 2019 17:47:59   #
Bmarsh Loc: Bellaire, MI
 
BBurns wrote:


John Denver - Fuel Mismanagement


Yes and no. He was flying a (new to him) experimental plane with a really unconventionally located fuel selector and he didn’t have enough altitude to make the switch of tanks. But yes, fuel mismanagement.

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Jul 1, 2019 18:01:35   #
1DProphet
 
Human factors, aka the dirty dozen in aviation, I believe the eastern failure was a control wheel steering bump, also pretty sure the salvaged parts are those which brought on the eastern ghost sightings aboard L1011’s

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Jul 1, 2019 21:24:32   #
stonecherub Loc: Tucson, AZ
 
Langewiesche story on Malaysia airlines mh370 - most interesting.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/07/mh370-malaysia-airlines/590653/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=atlantic-daily-newsletter&utm_content=20190701&silverid-ref=MzEwMTkwMTU3Nzk1S0

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Jul 1, 2019 23:41:40   #
davidrb Loc: Half way there on the 45th Parallel
 
jerryc41 wrote:
This post led me to post what's below - https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-598599-1.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I've watched all of the plane crash videos available on YouTube, and they were very interesting. One thing that impressed me is how many mistakes it takes to cause a plane to crash. It generally takes more than a year to complete an investigation, and all sorts of experts get involved. An expert in one of the videos was someone from this area whom I knew when he was a kid. Now he's grown up and working in aviation.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=plane+crash+investigations
This post led me to post what's below - https://ww... (show quote)


Brain farts are the primary cause of today's aviation accidents. A single fart is as fatal as several. In 1986 or 1987 a Northwest MD-80 tried to take off from Detroit Metro without setting flaps for take off. Single, simple omission by the flight crew and killed everyone on board. Chicago O'hare when an American DC-10 lost an engine (literally) on take off, rolled over onto it's top and pancaked into the runway. This was caused by thousands of mistakes which began several years prior. U S Air 737 on final approach into Pittsburgh when the aircraft rolled inverted and fell to the ground. All on board were killed. This took the NTSB many years to solve but the culprit turned out to be a failed rudder activator. And it was solved while investigating a different fatality. The work of the NTSB can move at a snail's pace. Their investigators look at and analyze everything. So thorough are the investigations that a coroner in Ohio once issued a death certificate based upon the facts recovered during an investigation. The body of the deceased has no head, hands, or feet. During that same investigation I learned that certain annunciator lights require two bulbs. If one bulb was illuminated and one bulb was not illuminated the concensus is just that: one bulb lit and one bulb not lit. So read the concluding report. Of major official concern is the fact that airplanes no not crash, they collide with the Earth. That is official terminology take from actual reports. NTSB final reports are as exciting as watching paint dry. The work of an investigation team is so boring that T V and Hollywood want no part of it.

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Jul 2, 2019 01:24:18   #
Abo
 
JeffL wrote:
Having been a general aviation pilot for almost 50 years, and having read several accident reports, I can assure you that airplanes don’t just fall out of the sky. The greatest percentage of accidents are due to pilot error. Loss of control, flying into weather conditions that are beyond your competence level, fuel mismanagement, and pilot health and proficiency issues are the leading causes. But, most of the causes of an accident chain of events started hours or even days before the accident. Family and work pressures, lack of proficiency (you can meet all the FAA requirements to be legal to fly, but not be a safe pilot), get-there-itis, overconfidence, ego, lack of planning, poor preflight execution, etc. So, an accident investigation has to look at not only what happened, but why. The JFK, Jr accident is a perfect example of all the things mentioned above that ended up killing three people.
Having been a general aviation pilot for almost 50... (show quote)


That QANTAS A380 incident sure as heck wasn't pilot error.
Those guys were excellent.

Rolls Royce were the culprits fitting a faulty oil pipe to the engine.

The reporting on that video wasn't the best either. The oil that leaked
and caught fire is not the most dramatic part of the engine failure.

Because of the oil loss a bearing on the hot end of main shaft of the engine
failed. Adjacent to that bearing is the turbine. The turbine is the unit which the hot burning
gasses pass through, spinning the turbine which is fixed to the shaft. Forward on that shaft
are the compressor fans... that compress the incoming air back into the combustion chamber forward of the turbine.

Anyway that bearing down the back that failed because of oil starvation, heated the shaft so much,
the turbine down the back spun free around the shaft, because it was no longer driving the compressor
stages, its RPM went warp factor 9, and it centrifuged itself to smithereens. The pieces flying out through the casings, wiring, wing, slats et al.

Things went down hill from there.

But the QANTAS pilots saved the aircraft and everyones lives.

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Jul 2, 2019 10:59:23   #
marine73 Loc: Modesto California
 
davidrb wrote:
Brain farts are the primary cause of today's aviation accidents. A single fart is as fatal as several. In 1986 or 1987 a Northwest MD-80 tried to take off from Detroit Metro without setting flaps for take off. Single, simple omission by the flight crew and killed everyone on board. Chicago O'hare when an American DC-10 lost an engine (literally) on take off, rolled over onto it's top and pancaked into the runway. This was caused by thousands of mistakes which began several years prior. U S Air 737 on final approach into Pittsburgh when the aircraft rolled inverted and fell to the ground. All on board were killed. This took the NTSB many years to solve but the culprit turned out to be a failed rudder activator. And it was solved while investigating a different fatality. The work of the NTSB can move at a snail's pace. Their investigators look at and analyze everything. So thorough are the investigations that a coroner in Ohio once issued a death certificate based upon the facts recovered during an investigation. The body of the deceased has no head, hands, or feet. During that same investigation I learned that certain annunciator lights require two bulbs. If one bulb was illuminated and one bulb was not illuminated the concensus is just that: one bulb lit and one bulb not lit. So read the concluding report. Of major official concern is the fact that airplanes no not crash, they collide with the Earth. That is official terminology take from actual reports. NTSB final reports are as exciting as watching paint dry. The work of an investigation team is so boring that T V and Hollywood want no part of it.
Brain farts are the primary cause of today's aviat... (show quote)


The accident in Pittsburg was not the only one attributed to the rudder, there were several in Colorado Springs involving United Airlines 737,s that was attributed to the rudder. It took a shop mechanic working in his spare Time to find the cause and the fix. This all happened prior to me starting to work there. The DC-10 accident in Chicago was laid at the feet of Maintenance who did an engine change on the # 2 engine using a forklift to lift the engine in place. A case of improper tooling for the job.

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Jul 3, 2019 00:51:54   #
Abo
 
JeffL wrote:
I concur with almost all you wrote. I do take exception to the wild game inclusion. I live in NJ which has a huge deer population. One night on the way home, I counted over 20 along the roadways. I am extremely caution when in those areas where deer are prevalent. However, I came within inches of nailing a buck that flew across the road in front of me. Only serendipity saved me that night. Situational awareness didn't save me. Sheer luck did.


I had a kangaroo drop out of the night sky in front of me ... dead center, while driving.
Talk about Twilight Zone.

It landed about a foot in front of the car and I was doing the speed limit, 100kmh/62MPH
of course it was an instantaneous BANG!

I was driving through a cutting at the time, the kanga jumped off the adjacent embankment;
like something Wil E Coyote would do.



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Jul 7, 2019 01:44:40   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
JeffL wrote:
Having been a general aviation pilot for almost 50 years, and having read several accident reports, I can assure you that airplanes don’t just fall out of the sky. The greatest percentage of accidents are due to pilot error. Loss of control, flying into weather conditions that are beyond your competence level, fuel mismanagement, and pilot health and proficiency issues are the leading causes. But, most of the causes of an accident chain of events started hours or even days before the accident. Family and work pressures, lack of proficiency (you can meet all the FAA requirements to be legal to fly, but not be a safe pilot), get-there-itis, overconfidence, ego, lack of planning, poor preflight execution, etc. So, an accident investigation has to look at not only what happened, but why. The JFK, Jr accident is a perfect example of all the things mentioned above that ended up killing three people.
Having been a general aviation pilot for almost 50... (show quote)


Pilot error is not always an error but can be an actual lack of terrain knowledge/experience. Cebu pacific Flight 387 is a good example. The charts maximum height was wrong and the pilots because of a detour were flying the route for the first time. They did a CFIT (Controlled flight into terrain) with no survivors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cebu_Pacific_Flight_387

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Jul 7, 2019 02:01:51   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
Kmgw9v wrote:
I thought the investigation/hearing in the film was perhaps realistic—but I really do not know anything about the industry. Decent movie, I thought.


Its a movie anyway so it needs to grab attention. I still think including that scene that it was unrealistic and too dramatic.

I have been present in a criminal trial several times and though some would try, drama is always mitigated by the judge and having taught Aviation Incidents & Accidents in college aside from Theory of flight, Drawing II & Helicopter Principles, i firmly believe that aircraft accident investigation would be even more clinically approached.

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