Sensor Size/Pixel Race Is Like Fighting The Last War ... Compact 1" Superzooms New Choice?
Nov 28, 2023 10:30:02 #
For years I have seen sensor size and pixel count wars increase from my best of the best 3.1 megapixel Kodak DC 4800 to the great full frame cameras of today. In prospective of inflation the cost in 2023 dollars is $1500.
The whirlwind world we live in is ever changing and as Bob Dylan sings "Don't stand in the door way for the first will be the last, for the times are a changin' " We must not block the door way and make way for change. Fantastic Cameras that allow ET to phone home... via iPhone or Tesla Pi Phone while we are driving to ET's Space ship in our Electric Car with Autonomous driving pilot.
Recently an UHH man posted a In other words, does sensor size matter anymore? Because my 72 year old body wouldn't mind lighter gear on my shoulders but I also don't want to go backwards in quality and capability. His is asking "can I eat my cake and have it too?"
https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-792910-1.html
The discussion got muddled by his concern about noise and full size vs smaller sensor. The debate over which heavy camera he should be lugging around with extra lenses went on for pages.
Again the question is often ask "can I eat my cake and have it too?" Yes, but it will be fecal... It seems that every one is forgetting we live in an AI world. Even the images from the Kodak DC4800 JPEG cropped heavy with the aid of AI come out clear sharp and applying Gigapixel result in a large clear printable file.
The new 1" sensor Compact Superzoom cameras provide excellent images. Excellent depends on Pixel-Peeking or Practicality of Perceiving. In Print form what can people see with the unaided eye at a viewing distance in normal light. Mr Joe Dokes, can you see the difference between print A and B? Joe looking at his wedding photos probably not.
I have a heavy bag of lenses and a Sony A65 excellent camera with a APS-C "Exmor" HD CMOS. What do I use for shooting? I use my Panasonic Superzoom 1"sensor TZ100 that delivers 20 mp and does more tricks than a 3 ring circus. If AI can make my Kodak DC 4800 JPEG heavy cropped images excellent then Obviously it can polish the images from the TZ100 or the more modern 1" compact superzooms now on the market by all manufacturers.
https://petapixel.com/best-compact-cameras/
The "72 year old body wouldn't mind lighter gear on my shoulders but I also don't want to go backwards in quality and capability." Will generally stay the same in quality and his gear will be light weight and in his pocket ready to make images and to be polished with new AI editing software.
Your thoughts are welcome... But remember, he has at 72 physical limitations, " lighter gear on my shoulders. As time goes on those limitations will get worse and he may have trouble walking close to the subject and the zoom power will be a life saver. Help Hal who posed the question and people like me, too soon 88.
The whirlwind world we live in is ever changing and as Bob Dylan sings "Don't stand in the door way for the first will be the last, for the times are a changin' " We must not block the door way and make way for change. Fantastic Cameras that allow ET to phone home... via iPhone or Tesla Pi Phone while we are driving to ET's Space ship in our Electric Car with Autonomous driving pilot.
Recently an UHH man posted a In other words, does sensor size matter anymore? Because my 72 year old body wouldn't mind lighter gear on my shoulders but I also don't want to go backwards in quality and capability. His is asking "can I eat my cake and have it too?"
https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-792910-1.html
The discussion got muddled by his concern about noise and full size vs smaller sensor. The debate over which heavy camera he should be lugging around with extra lenses went on for pages.
Again the question is often ask "can I eat my cake and have it too?" Yes, but it will be fecal... It seems that every one is forgetting we live in an AI world. Even the images from the Kodak DC4800 JPEG cropped heavy with the aid of AI come out clear sharp and applying Gigapixel result in a large clear printable file.
The new 1" sensor Compact Superzoom cameras provide excellent images. Excellent depends on Pixel-Peeking or Practicality of Perceiving. In Print form what can people see with the unaided eye at a viewing distance in normal light. Mr Joe Dokes, can you see the difference between print A and B? Joe looking at his wedding photos probably not.
I have a heavy bag of lenses and a Sony A65 excellent camera with a APS-C "Exmor" HD CMOS. What do I use for shooting? I use my Panasonic Superzoom 1"sensor TZ100 that delivers 20 mp and does more tricks than a 3 ring circus. If AI can make my Kodak DC 4800 JPEG heavy cropped images excellent then Obviously it can polish the images from the TZ100 or the more modern 1" compact superzooms now on the market by all manufacturers.
https://petapixel.com/best-compact-cameras/
The "72 year old body wouldn't mind lighter gear on my shoulders but I also don't want to go backwards in quality and capability." Will generally stay the same in quality and his gear will be light weight and in his pocket ready to make images and to be polished with new AI editing software.
Your thoughts are welcome... But remember, he has at 72 physical limitations, " lighter gear on my shoulders. As time goes on those limitations will get worse and he may have trouble walking close to the subject and the zoom power will be a life saver. Help Hal who posed the question and people like me, too soon 88.
Nov 28, 2023 10:35:38 #
If your cropped sensor throws away half the image circle from the lens, you might as well poke out one of your eyes.
Nov 28, 2023 11:03:35 #
dpullum wrote:
For years I have seen sensor size and pixel count ... (show quote)
Yes, you can have your cake and eat it too, IF you consider a store-bought pound cake to be as good as a nice wedding cake. You can't get more with less. While the 1" sensors are improving so are the FF sensors. They will never be equivalent. But sensor size is only one variable in a long list of variables that each of us will consider for ourselves.
With that said, each of us has a different set of needs and requirements. If you place much more importance on weight and bulk rather than image quality, then you've answered your own question. There are a huge number of questions to be asked that untimately determine what is the best combination of features that best suite the needs of every photographer. What's best for you isn't necessarily best for me.
So there is no answer to your question except for your particular preferences. If the 1" sensor cameras work for you, then your satisfied. Others will likely have different preferences/needs/requirements.
Just my thoughts
Nov 28, 2023 11:07:25 #
dpullum wrote:
For years I have seen sensor size and pixel count ... (show quote)
You are 88? Full frame, crop, M43m, 1 inch, phone, or Brownie...what ever. Just keep at it. Its a hobby.
I get a kick out of folks who argue this stuff and then looking up some of their photographs in the gallery. You can fill in the blanks.
Nov 28, 2023 11:20:52 #
My current "favorite for fun shooting" camera weighs 249 grams and fits in a larger pocket. Four propellers are standard, but you can hand hold it. It does not have a tripod mount.
Nov 28, 2023 11:46:18 #
dpullum wrote:
For years I have seen sensor size and pixel count ... (show quote)
I kinda agree. 10 years ago, when I got back into photography as a hobby (from 30 years earlier & film cameras), I got a Nikon p520 bridge camera just to see if I still wanted the hobby. Felt kinda of like a beginner till I saw a picture in one of the major photography mags showing the camera winning recognition in the mag. It showed me that it has as much to do with the photographer as it does to the camera. Of course, I did succumb to GAS and since then accumulated several DSLR’s with good glass. And they take good images and I will still use them. But, approaching 80 next month, I would like a lighter, less bulky camera to carry when I don’t feel like the bulkier, heavy dslr. So, I am looking for a bridge (superzoom) such as a Lumix fz200 or fz300 for that purpose. One of the DSLR’s will be with me in the car for when I want a special photograph, too. Just my thoughts.
Nov 28, 2023 12:43:47 #
My Nikon Z6 with a 24-70mm 4S, at 81 it fills all my needs, it is light, takes great pictures, now all I need is to get up from my wheelchair and go take some pictures.
Nov 28, 2023 13:58:33 #
Look if the camera & lens are so heavy that you tend to leave them home, you are not going to like the pictures.
If the issue is lightness, then the question shouldn't imply that you expect to have your cake & eat it too.
There are reasons some cameras and lenses are large and heavy. But large and heavy does not work for you , and many others. So stop asking the question in a way that includes all cameras, it's just silly.
The question you might ask is, Of the cameras that are light enough FOR ME, to conveniently carry what are the best options. (Only you can specify how large and how heavy)
You can mostly leave out all FF and APS-C system cameras, they are mostly big and heavy. There are exceptions like the sony 6000 series, but even there lenses can get heavy. There are Fixed lens apsc like The Fujifilm X100 series. MFT took their size and weight advantage and largely went larger & heavier (The former Olympus products are great cameras, just not that light) Perhaps Lumix? Personally, the 1" sensor cameras with Fast zooms from Sony & Canon are great and versatile f/1.8-2.8 powerhouses that fit in a pocket. They are around 20MP and produce great results. You can carry them everywhere. You can make beautiful pictures, and you can stop worrying about ...."....but is it as good as a Z8 and 6 lenses, two flashes and a tripod' because for your purpose, IT IS.
If the issue is lightness, then the question shouldn't imply that you expect to have your cake & eat it too.
There are reasons some cameras and lenses are large and heavy. But large and heavy does not work for you , and many others. So stop asking the question in a way that includes all cameras, it's just silly.
The question you might ask is, Of the cameras that are light enough FOR ME, to conveniently carry what are the best options. (Only you can specify how large and how heavy)
You can mostly leave out all FF and APS-C system cameras, they are mostly big and heavy. There are exceptions like the sony 6000 series, but even there lenses can get heavy. There are Fixed lens apsc like The Fujifilm X100 series. MFT took their size and weight advantage and largely went larger & heavier (The former Olympus products are great cameras, just not that light) Perhaps Lumix? Personally, the 1" sensor cameras with Fast zooms from Sony & Canon are great and versatile f/1.8-2.8 powerhouses that fit in a pocket. They are around 20MP and produce great results. You can carry them everywhere. You can make beautiful pictures, and you can stop worrying about ...."....but is it as good as a Z8 and 6 lenses, two flashes and a tripod' because for your purpose, IT IS.
Nov 28, 2023 14:25:24 #
CHG_CANON wrote:
If your cropped sensor throws away half the image circle from the lens, you might as well poke out one of your eyes.
That doesn't make sense to me. If you have an aps-c camera with an aps-c lens, then the image circle is complete with respect to that sensor. Or are you talking about a full-frame lens on an APS-C body.
Nov 28, 2023 14:32:43 #
CHG_CANON wrote:
If your cropped sensor throws away half the image circle from the lens, you might as well poke out one of your eyes.
Challenge makes us think and research the numbers which I did. The 1" sensor compact super-zoom cameras zoomed to take a 100' wide scene actually take 9' more height of the scene being photographed than the full frame
1″ image sensor with 4:3 aspect ratio is 12.8mm Horizontal 9.6mm Vertical 100' Wide target will be 75' high
full frame sensor with 3.2 aspect ratio is 36.0mm Horizontal 24mm Vertical 100' Wide target will be 66' high
Nov 28, 2023 14:44:36 #
dpullum wrote:
Challenge makes us think and research the numbers which I did. The 1" sensor compact super-zoom cameras zoomed to take a 100' wide scene actually take 9' more height of the scene being photographed than the full frame
1″ image sensor with 4:3 aspect ratio is 12.8mm Horizontal 9.6mm Vertical 100' Wide target will be 75' high
full frame sensor with 3.2 aspect ratio is 36.0mm Horizontal 24mm Vertical 100' Wide target will be 66' high
1″ image sensor with 4:3 aspect ratio is 12.8mm Horizontal 9.6mm Vertical 100' Wide target will be 75' high
full frame sensor with 3.2 aspect ratio is 36.0mm Horizontal 24mm Vertical 100' Wide target will be 66' high
My 1” sensor is 3:2, my M4/3 is 4:3
Nov 28, 2023 15:00:10 #
SalvageDiver Said in part: Yes, you can have your cake and eat it too, IF you consider a store-bought pound cake to be as good as a nice wedding cake. You can't get more with less.
DP reply: In Argentina, Baking is the task of the Bakery, and they do a wonderful job for low price.
While the 1" sensors are improving so are the FF sensors. They will never be equivalent. But sensor size is only one variable in a long list of variables that each of us will consider for ourselves.
DP reply: only one variable in a long list of variables, Yes,many variables.
One big factor is the human eye/mind with AI processing human eye perception is a limiting factor.
"At four times the horizontal and vertical resolution of 1080p and sixteen times the overall pixels, 8K images — named for the approximate number of pixels along the horizontal axis — are likely the clearest digital pictures the human eye will ever see. "
https://next.voxcreative.com/ad/18113053/pixels-human-vision-8k-television
SalvageDiver said: With that said, each of us has a different set of needs and requirements. If you place much more importance on weight and bulk rather than image quality, then you've answered your own question.
Image Quality with AI Processing is less and less of an issue and pushes a lesser image to the limits of human perception.
SalvageDiver said: There are a huge number of questions to be asked that untimately determine what is the best combination of features that best suite the needs of every photographer. What's best for you isn't necessarily best for me.
DP reply: True in all aspects of life
SalvageDiver said: So there is no answer to <the> question except for your particular preferences. If the 1" sensor cameras work for you, then your satisfied. Others will likely have different preferences/needs/requirements.
DP reply: The original question was camera for a man of "excess maturity" [old] and physical limitations. Also the final image is to be considered and how it is presented, TV, Monitor, Projected, and/or size Printed. Pixel pickers with a microscope may have preference that no one else sees. Eyes are limiting factor. Interesting read is here... Put on your bifocals freshly cleaned and give a read:
https://www.diax.nl/pages/perception_printquality_uk.html
DP reply: In Argentina, Baking is the task of the Bakery, and they do a wonderful job for low price.
While the 1" sensors are improving so are the FF sensors. They will never be equivalent. But sensor size is only one variable in a long list of variables that each of us will consider for ourselves.
DP reply: only one variable in a long list of variables, Yes,many variables.
One big factor is the human eye/mind with AI processing human eye perception is a limiting factor.
"At four times the horizontal and vertical resolution of 1080p and sixteen times the overall pixels, 8K images — named for the approximate number of pixels along the horizontal axis — are likely the clearest digital pictures the human eye will ever see. "
https://next.voxcreative.com/ad/18113053/pixels-human-vision-8k-television
SalvageDiver said: With that said, each of us has a different set of needs and requirements. If you place much more importance on weight and bulk rather than image quality, then you've answered your own question.
Image Quality with AI Processing is less and less of an issue and pushes a lesser image to the limits of human perception.
SalvageDiver said: There are a huge number of questions to be asked that untimately determine what is the best combination of features that best suite the needs of every photographer. What's best for you isn't necessarily best for me.
DP reply: True in all aspects of life
SalvageDiver said: So there is no answer to <the> question except for your particular preferences. If the 1" sensor cameras work for you, then your satisfied. Others will likely have different preferences/needs/requirements.
DP reply: The original question was camera for a man of "excess maturity" [old] and physical limitations. Also the final image is to be considered and how it is presented, TV, Monitor, Projected, and/or size Printed. Pixel pickers with a microscope may have preference that no one else sees. Eyes are limiting factor. Interesting read is here... Put on your bifocals freshly cleaned and give a read:
https://www.diax.nl/pages/perception_printquality_uk.html
Nov 28, 2023 15:04:17 #
SuperflyTNT wrote:
My 1” sensor is 3:2, my M4/3 is 4:3
Yes, correct: The sensor in the ZS200 has a native aspect ratio of 3:2 - the same as most DSLRs. But it was designed to offer 4:3, 3:2,16:9 and 1:1 aspect ..
The sensor in the ZS200 has a native aspect ratio of 3:2 - the same as most DSLRs. But it was designed to offer 4:3, 3:2,16:9 and 1:1 aspect ratios. It does this by utilizing the widest or tallest dimension of the 3:2 sensor and ignoring the unused pixels as shown in the table above.
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4281008
Nov 28, 2023 15:13:09 #
Diligence is the mother of good luck. Having a cropped-sensor camera is like dating your cousin.
Nov 28, 2023 17:55:10 #
SalvageDiver wrote:
Yes, you can have your cake and eat it too, b IF ... (show quote)
Wedding cakes suck egg, as do weddings. Pound cake from the store is quite good.
Image quality from a 1" sensor is perfect for family photographs, including the vacation.
Waste is the Winner as bigger is better. Game over for me.
I vote for none of the above as I slouch in my easy chair.
Only Dog gets another vote. Time for a walk.
Boris
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