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Jan 29, 2023 12:23:37   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
bsprague wrote:
Well done Jerry! Maybe you should do it again with a small change on each save!


Great idea! I'll add that to my To Do List, #89. : )

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Jan 29, 2023 13:24:40   #
charles tabb Loc: Richmond VA.
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Absolutely no loss.

The single greatest 'loss' of a JPEG is when the file is initially created, converting the bit-depth from a typically 12-bit (or higher) from the image sensor into an 8-bit JPEG.

What is 12-bit you might ask? That's 2^12 aka 2 to the power of 12 = 4096. An 8-bit JPEG has 256 tones of each of the three color channels of data (Red, Green, Blue aka RGB). These three RGB color channels work in combination to produce a much subtler, wider range of tones between total black and total white. A 12-bit file can combine RGB into more discrete shades, 4096 specifically for each individual RGB color channel.

When the JPEG is created, that 'shading' of the 12-bit image is mapped to the exact 8-bit color, or the nearest 8-bit value. The human eye can't see all the possible colors of an 8-bit file, so this isn't something you'd notice. The bit-depth enables you to better edit your images, where that wider possible tonal range avoids 'gaps' in the colors, something you can occasional encounter in the blue skies of JPEGs, where the transitions of shades of blue are uneven.

Opening and closing a JPEG does nothing to the contents of the file. Copying / moving the files does nothing to the contents of the file. Only when you 're-fire' the JPEG compression engine to save an edited version of the JPEG does the contents of the JPEG change, possibly. The bit-depth remains the same at 8-bit, so there isn't color data being tossed like the 12-bit to 8-bit conversion. If you change / lower the JPEG quality, only then is more data removed.

We hear about JPEG being a lossy compression. That JPEG 'quality' setting is the lossy compression. Again, that loss occurs when the new image file is created via a digital editor. Opening the file 'inflates' the compressed JPEG as stored in disk. The file doesn't change, viewing the JPEG is simply the software reading the data and 'inflating' the compressed data to display the contents, just like if you unfolded a letter from inside an envelope.

Changing the JPEG quality and saving a new version of the image is like cutting some pieces out of the letter you unfolded. If you cut on the edges, margins of the letter, and the file is smaller but no visual difference to the letter content. Using a still lower quality (say less than 80%) might involve cutting some content, a word or sentence here and there. Maybe it will make a visual difference, maybe not. But, once the trimmed letter is folded back into the envelop, it doesn't change simply from opening and closing over and over again.
Absolutely no loss. br br The single greatest 'lo... (show quote)


How about h=my just buying a 61 Mega Pixel camera.
I now don't feel any feel editing a JPEG and worrying about any visible lost.

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Jan 29, 2023 13:26:19   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
charles tabb wrote:
I think this has been answered before but I can't remember.

If I open a jpeg file and then close it is there any loss?

If so, is the loss naggable?


Opening and closing without editing does not change the file.

Editing and re-saving DOES change the file.

Nagging the loss will just make people think you're weird...

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Jan 29, 2023 13:51:09   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
charles tabb wrote:
How about h=my just buying a 61 Mega Pixel camera.
I now don't feel any feel editing a JPEG and worrying about any visible lost.

A high resolution original from the camera will cover up much of the degradation that occurs when editing a JPEG but it won't cover up everything. You're still editing 8 bit data and so you run a much higher risk of visible banding. Beyond that it's also just more difficult and time consuming to edit JPEGs -- it's more difficult to try and change already baked-in processing than to just start from scratch.

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Jan 29, 2023 14:16:37   #
mindzye Loc: WV
 
Thanks Ysarx for the info. 'Preciate it

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Jan 29, 2023 15:15:11   #
joecichjr Loc: Chicago S. Suburbs, Illinois, USA
 
jerryc41 wrote:
A few years ago, I opened, changed, and saved a JPEG image a hundred times. When I posted the first and last images here, they were virtually identical in quality.

I found them.

#1 (609kb), followed by #100 (594 kb). At the time (2010), some people said it wasn't a fair test because I didn't make enough changes - or something like that.


Love the shots, Jerry 🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺

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Jan 29, 2023 16:26:38   #
Chappy1101 Loc: Glenview, IL
 
bsprague wrote:
However, theory and reality don't always match.

The theory is that each time you open a JPEG and then "Save" or "Save As" the JPEG codec does it's work and looks for extra data to shed. Apparently that used to be potentially severe.

JPEG standards have improved and those "saves" don't do much damage.

Make a copy of a favorite JPEG and see how many times you can save it before you see noticeable damage.


If one changes the name or location on disk of a jpg file via the operating system (Windows or Mac) the file size does not change and I do not believe any further compression or loss occurs. Are you saying that doing a Save as (presumably within some editing capable program), without having changed anything on the file except name and possibly location on disk, that the file content (loss and/or compression) is then affected?

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Jan 29, 2023 16:49:46   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
Chappy1101 wrote:
If one changes the name or location on disk of a jpg file via the operating system (Windows or Mac) the file size does not change and I do not believe any further compression or loss occurs. Are you saying that doing a Save as (presumably within some editing capable program), without having changed anything on the file except name and possibly location on disk, that the file content (loss and/or compression) is then affected?

A Save as function to another JPEG (different file name) would affect the file content via re-compression -- yes.

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Jan 29, 2023 17:00:29   #
bsprague Loc: Lacey, WA, USA
 
Chappy1101 wrote:
If one changes the name or location on disk of a jpg file via the operating system (Windows or Mac) the file size does not change and I do not believe any further compression or loss occurs. Are you saying that doing a Save as (presumably within some editing capable program), without having changed anything on the file except name and possibly location on disk, that the file content (loss and/or compression) is then affected?


I may not know what I'm talking about. What I think happens is that a Save or Save As in Photoshop, or any other editor, causes a JPEG file to be analyzed for compression. So, in theory, there should be some "compression loss". However, in practice, I've never seen visually detectable quality loss through several Saves.

For me and my procedures, it doesn't matter because I use a Lightroom Classic workflow where the original file is left alone. I sometimes force compression in the Export process to reduce file size.

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Jan 29, 2023 17:46:25   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
Chappy1101 wrote:
If one changes the name or location on disk of a jpg file via the operating system (Windows or Mac) the file size does not change and I do not believe any further compression or loss occurs. Are you saying that doing a Save as (presumably within some editing capable program), without having changed anything on the file except name and possibly location on disk, that the file content (loss and/or compression) is then affected?


Operating system moves or renames will not affect the file. A rename doesn't touch the file. A move may cause a copy, but it will be a bit by bit copy so no compression change.

Save As (after no edit changes) MAY trigger a rewrite, but it will depend on the software used.

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Jan 29, 2023 21:02:38   #
Chappy1101 Loc: Glenview, IL
 
bsprague wrote:
I may not know what I'm talking about. What I think happens is that a Save or Save As in Photoshop, or any other editor, causes a JPEG file to be analyzed for compression. So, in theory, there should be some "compression loss". However, in practice, I've never seen visually detectable quality loss through several Saves.

For me and my procedures, it doesn't matter because I use a Lightroom Classic workflow where the original file is left alone. I sometimes force compression in the Export process to reduce file size.
I may not know what I'm talking about. What I thi... (show quote)


Well, just out of curiosity, I ran some experiments: 4 steps.
1. Started with a Raw file (Z6 with no edits) showing file size of 30.73MB - both in Windows and LRC Metadata.
2. Exported to jpg with no changes, and at quality of 100%. File size reduced to 13.86MB.
3. Did “Save as" (name change only) from Windows Photo Viewer - resulting in no file size change.
4. Then from LRC, did export from jpg to new jpg with changed file name (closest process in LRC to a “Save as”). File size then increase from 13.86MB to 13.97MB according to LRC metadata (confirmed this file size in Windows).

PUZZLING: the second save in LRC on the jpg not only did not show additional compression (implying additional loss), it showed a larger file size - implying additional data. Again no edits were applied outside of file name change. Ideas?

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Jan 29, 2023 21:30:36   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
Chappy1101 wrote:
Well, just out of curiosity, I ran some experiments: 4 steps.
1. Started with a Raw file (Z6 with no edits) showing file size of 30.73MB - both in Windows and LRC Metadata.
2. Exported to jpg with no changes, and at quality of 100%. File size reduced to 13.86MB.
3. Did “Save as" (name change only) from Windows Photo Viewer - resulting in no file size change.
4. Then from LRC, did export from jpg to new jpg with changed file name (closest process in LRC to a “Save as”). File size then increase from 13.86MB to 13.97MB according to LRC metadata (confirmed this file size in Windows).

PUZZLING: the second save in LRC on the jpg not only did not show additional compression (implying additional loss), it showed a larger file size - implying additional data. Again no edits were applied outside of file name change. Ideas?
Well, just out of curiosity, I ran some experiment... (show quote)

Sounds fine to me. In both cases you had LR export a JPEG at it's highest quality setting on two different sets of data (same pixel count) and you came up with very close final file sizes. In both cases the JPEG algorithm was applied to the data. Since the two data sets are different to begin with some minor output size variation is reasonable.

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Jan 29, 2023 22:37:06   #
xt2 Loc: British Columbia, Canada
 
charles tabb wrote:
I think this has been answered before but I can't remember.

If I open a jpeg file and then close it is there any loss?

If so, is the loss naggable?


This has been answered ad infinitum, check the threads plz!

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Jan 29, 2023 23:01:06   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
xt2 wrote:
This has been answered ad infinitum, check the threads plz!


You're funny. The second post on the first page answered the OP's question. Please read the threads before giving advise.

The devil made me do it.

---

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Jan 30, 2023 00:31:31   #
jcboy3
 
charles tabb wrote:
I think this has been answered before but I can't remember.

If I open a jpeg file and then close it is there any loss?

If so, is the loss naggable?


No loss from opening and closing a JPG.

It is possible to crop a JPG without any loss if the editor has a lossless JPG crop capability.

If you do other edits, you will likely suffer a small loss of IQ, but it would take a lot of repeated edits/saves to make the losses non-negligable (i.e. noticeable).

If you use an editor like Lightroom, you can repeatedly edit and export JPG without cumulative loss.

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