SteveR Loc: Michigan

The analyst is a longtime airshow pilot of fighter planes. This was forwarded to me by a pilot friend of mine and former long time airline pilot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C342dfNPCyg

TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC

Very interesting (and incredibly sad). Sounds as if having the bombers and fighters at the same altitude was a big contributing factor.

PAR4DCR Loc: A Sunny Place

Does anyone know the name on the P 63 Kingcobra? We know the B-17 was "Texas Raiders" but I can't find out the name of the Kingcobra.

Don

SteveR Loc: Michigan

Especially since the fighters would take a loop that circled just inside that of the bombers when circling which apparently led to the crash.

act Loc: Trussville, AL

I have been thinking of the possibility of the fighter pilot becoming incapacitated.

fourlocks Loc: Londonderry, NH

Fascinating, especially at the end where he describes how two air racing planes have to interact during a turn. It seems obvious you shouldn't have fighters and bombers at the same altitude sharing the same course.

Caribou Loc: St. Louis, MO

That was very informative. I'm not a pilot. I couldn't fly a plane to save my life. But I did wonder how that accident could happen. That answered a lot of my questions. I never realized the skill required and the danger that exists in those shows.

Lucian Loc: From Wales, living in Ohio

The single fighter pilot is sat in a position that makes it impossible to see directly in front and just below the nose or off to the side under the wings. If you see his flight path as he came upon the bomber, you can see that he did not have that aircraft in his view at all. The bomber pilot also had a hard time seeing off to his left behind him and slightly above a degree or so. That is the worst position to be in for two aircraft converging.

There have been many accidents with two aircraft converging and crashing when coming into land on finals. A high wing below and a low wing above are coming down onto the same angle as they approach the runway threshold, and neither can see the other. If there is a tower or someone watch from an FBO, they would have a visual and could alert the pilots of what is about to happen (Impact in the air) but without outside help, that scenario will always result in one coming down on top of the other, when their approach speeds are matched along the same line.

That's why you always broadcast your intensions, altitude and position, when at an uncontrolled airport and in the pattern or approaching the pattern. That way all other aircraft have a mental picture of where they are to you, in proximity.

Bushpilot Loc: Minnesota

That's what I was thinking from looking the original that the P-63 nose was obscuring the pilots view of the B-17. Thanks for sharing this concise assessment.

AirWalter Loc: Tipp City, Ohio

This video does a very good job of explaining this accident, but the accident was started when the P-63 approached the closest P-51 at too fast of speed and his only choice was to make his bank at a wider loop than the P-51 or he would have rear ended the P-51. At this time the P-63 pilot was probably watching the P-51 to make sure he cleared it. This wider loop by the P-63 is what drew him into the loop of the B-17. I would imagine the pilot in the P-63 say the B-17 at the very last instant. I have seen this type of formations at Ypsilanti, MI every year during the "Thunder over Michigan" airshow, which is mainly WWII Bombers and Fighters. I have seen very few (1 or 2) close calls at Michigan, and they were realized with more space between aircraft and corrected in plenty of time. An accident like the one in Dallas is extremely rare, the odds of that happening are extremely rare. What a tragedy it is when it does happen. May they all R.I.P., and their family's find peace. God bless them all.

SteveR Loc: Michigan

I'm sure you know more than I do, Walter, but my takeaway on this was that on the loop, the fighters flew a smaller diameter loop than the bomber, causing the fighter to intersect the bomber when the loops intersected.

ad9mac

Juan Browne analyses many crashes.
Most excellent channel if you're into aviation.

AirWalter Loc: Tipp City, Ohio

Oh yeah, that sounds like dare-devil maneuvers. I noticed on their diagrams that it does look like the loops do intersect and I wondered about that myself. I don't know if they really do that at the Dallas airshow or not, but at "Thunder over Michigan" the Fighters do fly smaller loops than the Bombers, but I have never seen them intersect at Michigan.

SteveR Loc: Michigan

Did you see the discussion of this point on the video? I think that's what the analyst was saying led to the crash, especially since they were flying at the same altitude. Previously in Dallas, the fighters flew at a higher altitude. Did the fly at the same or different altitude in Michigan? Did you see this portion of the video? As I recall it was towards the end.