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View Finders - Mirrorless vs DLSR
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May 16, 2022 18:46:32   #
User ID
 
KenProspero wrote:
It's not an exposure issue -- Both the EVF and the rear screen in the Z5 show A LOT of noise when shooting in low light. I've found, that I can't rely on either the EVF or the rear screen to check exposure in dim light (which is a partial answer to OP's question). The noise is bad enough -- that I can't even really use the evf or the screen by itself to see whether the moon is in focus. Fortunately, the EXTREME noise does not show in the ultimate picture and there are work arounds (such as using the movie mode for composition, where for some reason, there is much less noise. But, to address what I think you're saying -- I have the noise on the screens, even if the ultimate picture is properly exposed. (It may be that there's some setting I'm missing, but I haven't found it and I'd love it if there were something to do that I just haven't found).

It's a known issue with the camera. It's not a huge issue with shooting the milky way, where I'll shoot wide open (with whatever lens I have), and for as long as recommended to minimize star trails -- As far as ISO, I know I'm good to ISO 3200 or even 6400 on this camera, so I'll just take a few shots.

The moon -- with an eclipse, is more tricky, since the brightness of subject is changing over times. But, again, not a huge problem, since the exposure will be short. So, the shooting plan for last night -- when the the eclipse was total (i.e., red moon) was to start with f/8, shutter 1/125, ISO 800 or 1600 and make adjustments from there. After each picture, I can check each picture on the rear screen (or on my ipad) to see whether I've gotten the exposure right.

However, with the clouds, I couldn't see the moon at all. It happens.
It's not an exposure issue -- Both the EVF and th... (show quote)

The exposures hogsters are reporting are at odds with my experience last night. I was using about 9000 and 12800 ISO @1/15 @f/4.

Some phone snaps of the monitor:


(Download)


(Download)

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May 16, 2022 19:02:18   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
JimRPhoto wrote:
Looking at the photos, I don’t see a significant difference between those taken with the mirrorless camera, or the older DLSR camera. The only PP I did was to crop one of them just a bit. Taken hand held with each. So although I had difficulty with the EVR and switched to the optical viewfinder DLSR, the photos are OK either way. Thanks to all for your comments and your tips. The first is with the mirrorless, the second with DLSR.


Thank you for posting two examples. Alas, you didn't store the files so we could inspect the EXIF. Please add another replay and be sure to store the attachments.

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May 16, 2022 19:06:27   #
wrangler5 Loc: Missouri
 
r1ch wrote:
We know my image had issues with motion blur just looking at the stars, yours is not that much sharper. I don't think the kit lens did that great of a job.


Indeed it did not do a great job. But that lens is all I have that's longer than 60mm, and I didn't want to mess with a tripod. The images are little more than snapshots, and given how shaky I seemed to be with the monopod I'm pleased they came out as well as they did. (FWIW, exposure was 1/160 @ f/5.6 - wide open at this focal length - @ ISO 200. Quick and dirty Lightroom processing of RAW file for brightness/shadows but no contrast or sharpening adjustments, and export to JPG which came out surprisingly small even though I took off any size limit on the export - RAW file was 16MB but JPG was only 270KB.)

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May 16, 2022 19:10:23   #
r1ch Loc: Colorado
 
Repost

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May 16, 2022 19:13:29   #
r1ch Loc: Colorado
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Thank you for posting two examples. Alas, you didn't store the files so we could inspect the EXIF. Please add another replay and be sure to store the attachments.


It is still a good image. I was looking online at blood moon images and there are very few I would consider great images. Some of them were stacked so though my image was not good, it was not bad compared to others and yours is even better. Good job.

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May 16, 2022 21:34:44   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
JimRPhoto wrote:
Hello UHH community. I have recognized for some time that there is a lag in ability to take consecutive shots quickly with a mirrorless, due to the EVF. Generally, there are ways to work around that. Last night we had a total eclipse of the moon. On the “inbound” segment, I was using a mirrorless camera. As the eclipse got more complete, the EVF system could no longer support even finding the subject. As the eclipse was ending later on, I went back to my DLSR and there was no problem whatsoever in acquiring and taking the photos.

While I like the features of each, generally I use the DLSR (a Canon 5D Mk iv) for local use and road trips, and the smaller mirrorless for compactness while traveling. Now I see one more differentiator.

Have any of you experienced this issue with low light capability with the EVR in a mirrorless camera system? Would appreciate knowing if you have found ways to overcome this problem.

Thank you all. Jim R
Hello UHH community. I have recognized for some t... (show quote)


What is your mirrorless camera? It sounds like it is defective. My Olympus system will amplify the EVR well beyond my film camera's OVF abilities. And where is this "lag" coming from? My present E-M1 mkIII is 60 fps and the new OM-1 is 120 fps. The viewfinder of both can be setup with no "black out" of images for a continuous view of the scene. And Olympus is not the only brand that does this. It may be time to upgrade your mirrorless camera body. That is probably the best "work around" for your problems.

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May 17, 2022 06:20:46   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
JimRPhoto wrote:
Hello UHH community. I have recognized for some time that there is a lag in ability to take consecutive shots quickly with a mirrorless, due to the EVF. Generally, there are ways to work around that. Last night we had a total eclipse of the moon. On the “inbound” segment, I was using a mirrorless camera. As the eclipse got more complete, the EVF system could no longer support even finding the subject. As the eclipse was ending later on, I went back to my DLSR and there was no problem whatsoever in acquiring and taking the photos.

While I like the features of each, generally I use the DLSR (a Canon 5D Mk iv) for local use and road trips, and the smaller mirrorless for compactness while traveling. Now I see one more differentiator.

Have any of you experienced this issue with low light capability with the EVR in a mirrorless camera system? Would appreciate knowing if you have found ways to overcome this problem.

Thank you all. Jim R
Hello UHH community. I have recognized for some t... (show quote)


I shoot with Sony, I have not experienced your problem.

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May 17, 2022 08:52:32   #
fetzler Loc: North West PA
 
JimRPhoto wrote:
Hello UHH community. I have recognized for some time that there is a lag in ability to take consecutive shots quickly with a mirrorless, due to the EVF. Generally, there are ways to work around that. Last night we had a total eclipse of the moon. On the “inbound” segment, I was using a mirrorless camera. As the eclipse got more complete, the EVF system could no longer support even finding the subject. As the eclipse was ending later on, I went back to my DLSR and there was no problem whatsoever in acquiring and taking the photos.

While I like the features of each, generally I use the DLSR (a Canon 5D Mk iv) for local use and road trips, and the smaller mirrorless for compactness while traveling. Now I see one more differentiator.

Have any of you experienced this issue with low light capability with the EVR in a mirrorless camera system? Would appreciate knowing if you have found ways to overcome this problem.

Thank you all. Jim R
Hello UHH community. I have recognized for some t... (show quote)


Well my Olympus EM1 MkIII has Procapture mode that can record up to 60fps. Recording begins with a half shutter press and continues when the shutter is fully pressed. In this way one gets frames before you press the shutter. Remember with a DSLR you can't see anything with the mirror up. I also can't record much to my brain in a 2-3 second burst. Also make sure that you set up your EVF to simulate an OVF if the scene is really dark. The Live View screen on a DSLR will behave similarly to the EVF.

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May 17, 2022 08:53:47   #
fetzler Loc: North West PA
 
wdross wrote:
What is your mirrorless camera? It sounds like it is defective. My Olympus system will amplify the EVR well beyond my film camera's OVF abilities. And where is this "lag" coming from? My present E-M1 mkIII is 60 fps and the new OM-1 is 120 fps. The viewfinder of both can be setup with no "black out" of images for a continuous view of the scene. And Olympus is not the only brand that does this. It may be time to upgrade your mirrorless camera body. That is probably the best "work around" for your problems.
What is your mirrorless camera? It sounds like it ... (show quote)


ditto

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May 17, 2022 09:13:54   #
gwilliams6
 
Absolutely no such issues with the EVF in my Sony mirrorless A1, A7RIV, A7SIII. The auto gain feature of the EVF will display even the darkest items and the focus has no trouble " finding" them whatsoever.

Not sure what mirrorless EVF you were using and how it was set up. More user error likely than anything with the mirrorless EVF.

I shot SLRs and DSLRs for over 40 years and moved to mirrorless. EVF have evolved to the point where there is no longer ANY advantage to any OVF, really. I have 9.2 million dot EVFs with up to 240 fps refresh rate, just amazing.

And I get an actual preview and review of all my exposure settings, plus a histogram. No OVF can ever do that.

Before you condemn EVFs vs OVF, do better research and know your settings and how to use them properly.

Cheers and best to you.

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May 17, 2022 09:36:17   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
JimRPhoto wrote:
Hello UHH community. I have recognized for some time that there is a lag in ability to take consecutive shots quickly with a mirrorless, due to the EVF. Generally, there are ways to work around that. Last night we had a total eclipse of the moon. On the “inbound” segment, I was using a mirrorless camera. As the eclipse got more complete, the EVF system could no longer support even finding the subject. As the eclipse was ending later on, I went back to my DLSR and there was no problem whatsoever in acquiring and taking the photos.

While I like the features of each, generally I use the DLSR (a Canon 5D Mk iv) for local use and road trips, and the smaller mirrorless for compactness while traveling. Now I see one more differentiator.

Have any of you experienced this issue with low light capability with the EVR in a mirrorless camera system? Would appreciate knowing if you have found ways to overcome this problem.

Thank you all. Jim R
Hello UHH community. I have recognized for some t... (show quote)


"Read The *Fine* Manual" is the operating sentiment here. I think you can do what you need to do, although you didn't state what camera you have in your original post.

There is absolutely no need to use automatic focus to photograph the moon. Set manual focus and confirm it with focus magnification and/or focus confirmation "shimmers".

Perhaps use auto exposure, if you arrive at a compensation that tracks well for the size of the moon in a dark frame.

I think you'll find that mirrorless cameras made in the last 2-3 years don't have much of an issue with viewfinder lag, and that they have settings to handle almost any situation. In the meantime, it's not 'versus,' it is 'and,' as we transition the industry away from flipping and flopping mirrors.

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May 17, 2022 09:46:54   #
bwana Loc: Bergen, Alberta, Canada
 
JimRPhoto wrote:
Hello UHH community. I have recognized for some time that there is a lag in ability to take consecutive shots quickly with a mirrorless, due to the EVF. Generally, there are ways to work around that. Last night we had a total eclipse of the moon. On the “inbound” segment, I was using a mirrorless camera. As the eclipse got more complete, the EVF system could no longer support even finding the subject. As the eclipse was ending later on, I went back to my DLSR and there was no problem whatsoever in acquiring and taking the photos.

While I like the features of each, generally I use the DLSR (a Canon 5D Mk iv) for local use and road trips, and the smaller mirrorless for compactness while traveling. Now I see one more differentiator.

Have any of you experienced this issue with low light capability with the EVR in a mirrorless camera system? Would appreciate knowing if you have found ways to overcome this problem.

Thank you all. Jim R
Hello UHH community. I have recognized for some t... (show quote)

No, haven't noticed the problem with Sony mirrorless. The A7S, A7 III and A7R III will readily focus on a bright star or any portion of the Moon.

bwa

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May 17, 2022 10:22:43   #
Hip Coyote
 
I’m kinda confused on several issues

- noise in the evf? I don’t think this matters to the final image. That is just a broadcast of a simulation of what the final exposure will look like. It does not simulate noise however. EVF or the rear screen all the same. Like televisions, they may have different resolutions.

- I did not shoot the moon this time. (Babysitting a 1 year old grand baby wore me out.). But the times I have shot the moon I put my mirrorless in manual everything except ISO, set an aperture I wanted, manually focused the image and adjusted the exposure until I saw what I wanted and pressed the shutter. Manual focus as well and just leave it be after that. The moon is not going anywhere.

On my Oly when I take my face away from the EVF and the rear screen goes on automatically. Makes finding the moon rather easy. Find it, put your face on the EVF and shoot a single shot. Chimp and repeat. I disagree with those who say turn off the wysiwyg feature of the EVF to make it look more like a DSLR view...the wysiwyg feature is how I overcome the oddities of the exposure to get it in the range of being ok....and always look at the histogram. Focus peaking can help, as others suggested.

- Mirrorless can shoot faster frames per second than dlsrs because of the electronic shutter. I don’t know why this would matter in that I’d simply point at the moon and press the shutter to get one shot per press. Why the need for rapid fire? Spot meter on the moon.

- the moon is much brighter than people think which is why most images of it are blown out. The EVF will help you with this. I was surprised how much I had to stop down to get a decent shot.

- I attached an original moon shot and an edited version (I think they are the same..I goofed on the exif data when I saved the jpeg after editing) ...but were shot the same nite. The settings were for m43 400 mm lens (800 ff equivalent, f6.7, ss of 500 and ISO 200...hand held, spot metering.) In other words, the moon is bright. I would think on an eclipse, it is of course, not nearly as bright, but as the moon disappears behind the (penumbra?) it still has some light...up the ISO or open up the camera or reduce the ss.

A lot of editing seemed necessary to make the shot look ok.

- Lastly, the app Photopills is most excellent. It will tell you how fast your ss has to be to avoid blurring of the moon. But it takes a deep dive to understand the app. (I am only now understanding part of it..but a fun learning adventure.) I went down a rabbit hole the night of the eclipse and learned a lot from their on line videos. An amazing amount of information on that app. it does simulations, depth of field, field of view, and the list goes on and on. It will even tell you what shots are possible and when...such as a full moon between the Eiffel Tower legs. Its is quite amazing.

Orignal unedited shot
Orignal unedited shot...



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May 17, 2022 10:27:59   #
r1ch Loc: Colorado
 
gwilliams6 wrote:
More user error likely than anything with the mirrorless

And I get an actual preview and review of all my exposure settings, plus a histogram. No OVF can ever do that.

I totally agree with this!
The Canon R5 works the same way. To be able to see the histogram in the EVF or the back of the camera AND what the exposure will actually look like just changes the way I shoot for night photography. Focus peaking allows me to use manual focus lenses with confidence and opens up a whole world of vintage lenses with the right adapter which was not possible with Canon EF (well you could use Nikon lenses on Canon).

The AF eye tracking for birds in flight, wildlife and portraiture is another game changer. While many previous upgrades to cameras were minimal these features alone are worth the price of admission.

Once these features find themselves on the lower end cameras everyone will need to upgrade. Simple as that.

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May 17, 2022 11:00:26   #
Hip Coyote
 
wrangler5 wrote:
I had no trouble with my Olympus OMD EM1 MkIII and a Lumix 45-150 kit lens, on a (not very steady, at my age) monopod. The moon was always found easily at full lens extension (~300mm equivalent for 35mm full frame). Certainly not museum quality with that lens and setup, but an 8x8 will go in the annual photo books that the family gets next Christmas, without apology.

There may be a few things I miss about my full frame Nikon D600 DSLR. I can't think of any at the moment, but whatever they are, the viewfinder is absolutely not one of 'em.
I had no trouble with my Olympus OMD EM1 MkIII and... (show quote)


Wrangler, I do not want to hijack this thread...but I downloaded your image and edited it...with 30 seconds of editing, the photo was vastly improved...it is a good shot, particularly with a kit lens. Can I suggest you start a new thread, perhaps in the Photo Critique Section (which I moderate) and post there? I thnk you will be pleased.

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