JD750 Loc: SoCal

👍

rlv567 Loc: Baguio City, Philippines

[quote=scubadoc]


As I have stated here on prior occasions, I certainly do understand that that which is perceived to be/believed to be “truth” is dependent upon a number of factors. Given 50 persons viewing something, especially some traumatic event, there well may be 52 descriptions presented. You indicate “culture, upbringing and value systems” as the basis for determination of any individual’s “reality/truth”. To those must be added, and of equal or greater influence, past experiences, especially of traumatic events. Harvey Jenkins postulates that they actually cause physical/electrical changes in the brain, such that subsequent traumatic occurrences will be experienced in an altered fashion, not truly representative of the actual occurrence. Adding as a very real contributing factor is the “Goebbels Effect”, currently being utilized to such great advantage.

None of this, however, in the least diminishes the absolute fact that indeed there is absolute truth, and it cannot be twisted or denied. Consensus (compromise) certainly has its place in dispute resolution, but has no bearing on truth, which is inalterable.

If you actually believe that “reality/truth, as it is based on our culture, upbringing, and value systems”, is different for each individual, I presume you advocated sitting down with Adolf Hitler, having a “meaningful conversation” with him, and coming to a consensus (compromise). After all, his “truths” were as valid as yours, and just a product of the factors you enumerate, and “still have validity and are not to be scorned”. Unfortunately, one of the great problems we face increasingly these days is that so many look at everything relatively, believing there is no absolute right or wrong, and as a result, taking no responsibility for their actions.

I sincerely hope you will re-read what I have written and think about it seriously.

Loren – in Beautiful Baguio City

scubadoc Loc: Sarasota, FL

Give me your examples of “absolute truth which cannot be twisted or denied” . Your argument that I advocate sitting down with Hitler is twisted and I hope facetious. What is so special about you that there is only one unalterable truth. Prior to 600 BC the truth was that the earth was flat. People were imprisoned for believing otherwise. Most people now believe that the earth is spherical, and that is the new truth. Truth changes with facts, and what we believe to be truth today will likely change as new facts about the universe are discovered. I am not belittling your belief systems, nor should you belittle mine.

Stephan G

Realities based on assumptions. Something like building structures on shifting sands?

Never mind. "Reality" without facts means nothing.

May the sails clear your head as you tack.

scubadoc Loc: Sarasota, FL

And don’t let the boom knock you overboard.

Bayou

It's a shame the OP dropped the ball here, and stopped responding to an interesting discussion. There were important questions asked, but ignored....

JD750 Loc: SoCal

Yes that is true.

bikinkawboy Loc: north central Missouri

Hitler was mentioned. When my daughter was in high school she had to write a paper about WWII. I suggested she write why Hitler was justified in annexing portions of certain countries early on. I gave her details and dragged out a bunch of books on WWII. Her teacher said he hated her paper but had to give he an A because it was so well done.

Don’t get me wrong, Hitler should have been disposed of while still in short pants and liederhosen. But anyway, the areas annexed initially had been part of pre-WWI Germany-Prussia and were inhabited by German speaking ethnic Germans. Hence those folks had no problem with the German army coming in.

As for the atrocities committed by the German army when invading Russia, before any WWII hostilities broke out Stalin had his army go into the ethnic German villages and kill all men and boys and rape the women and girls. That was another reason those villages welcomed the “invading” German army.

German soldiers committing atrocities upon Russian civilians was undoubtedly wrong, but so was Stalin having his army killing and raping civilians that were technically Russian citizens. Every historical incident is like an onion with layer after layer of facts, reasons and causes. When you get down to it, we each live in our own little world.

Tony G.

It is very interesting that over a picture we have not seen; we now have a discussion that covers detailed histories and emotions. "No picture" has created more than a thousand words. Reminds me of the French Play "Art" by Yasmina Reza of 3 friends arguing and discussing a blank canvas that one bought and believes it is great art. A one act play that won a Tony for Best Play in 1998. I wonder if the picture is worth a thousand words if we saw it.

Stephan G

"A pretty painting of No thing!" Would be the "correct" and immediate response from a Zen Buddhist.

We had a discussion about the "White Painting" (http://blairoracle.com/the-all-white-painting-worth-20/1) in class decades back. I even saw it when it came to the Chicago Art Institute. (It wasn't worth the 20.6 Million dollars even then. IMHO) One of the comments from that class, "I can get better results when I Gesso my canvas".

rlv567 Loc: Baguio City, Philippines

It appears that I need to correct/clarify some things. Please don’t – for whatever reason - put words in my mouth.

I did not even MENTION scientific beliefs. NOWHERE did I say that we have knowledge of absolute scientific truths. Just the opposite is the case. What is universally accepted this year may well be rubbish next year, and vice versa. This has been happening throughout recorded history. Making matters even worse, recently, some “absolute scientific truths” have been propagated purely in the furtherance of nefarious political agenda and thought control, as in the case of the CCP virus, unfortunately causing many to lose employment and/or suffer drastically. The lack of absolutes in the realm of science I have been aware of for years, (and I am a scientist), and I believe you have also.

You stated: “There is no single reality/truth, as it is based on our culture, upbringing, and value systems.” and “others who may disagree with you still have validity and are not to be scorned.” and “Consensus is always possible.” So, very plainly you have said that everyone has been subject to different factors which have shaped their truth, and that the truth held by any one individual then is just as valid as that held by any other. Further, you said that meaningful conversations between those who disagree always can lead to consensus (compromise) if both sides wish to achieve that goal. What you have said, EXACTLY, is that Hitler’s views have as great validity as yours, and that the two of you could have reached a compromise between your views through conversation. There is no way you can back out of that!

I will acknowledge that I was in error in not anticipating the need to say that in my belief the area in which there are absolute truths is in morality (as, for instance, in the Ten Commandments), and those are not mine, but should be the same for everyone.

I trust this will have cleared things up, and that there are no further misunderstandings. Respectfully,

Loren – in Beautiful Baguio City

scubadoc Loc: Sarasota, FL

I never mentioned Hitler in my posts, you brought him up. Additionally, the Ten Commandments are an absolute truth only to those of the Judeo-Christian religions. Other religions have other “absolute truths”

Tony G.

Very interesting that a real canvas of white exists as expensive art. Was it a gesso canvas or painted over with white oil or acrylic paint. The DeYoung Museum in San Francisco hung a blank canvas on the wall when the Play "Art" was being performed in SF. It drove the tourist crowd up the wall.

Stephan G

I will have to defer to the information contained in the referred URL in my previous comment.

If I recall correctly, it was painted, not gesso untouched. I saw it back in 1968, I think. It did create quite a stir when it was brought to the Art Institute then. Kazimir Malevich was the painter. (Point of interest: He was born in Kiev, Ukraine 1879.) There are several other pieces of his work there, as well.

Brought back to mind of the canvas which was painted, placed on the floor as an environmental presentation. It was picked up by a night cleaning crew who thought the painters left it there by accident. There were some structural work being done at the time. Sorry, can't recall the location.

(FWIW, one of my favorites is The Rock, by Peter Blume.)

MDI Mainer

Having basically reignited the Civil War here on UHH I'm not surprised he's taken cover, especially if that wasn't his intent.