dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho

Just yesterday I was thinking The Attic seems to cover politics, only, for the most part. But, I thought, there are other things worth discussing that need not be political oriented, firearm cartridges for example. The 45 ACP was once thought to be one of our best defense cartridges but not much good otherwise except for target shooting and then only with a tuned accurized gun with a target barrel, target sights and target trigger. The normal as issued gun to our military members was known to not be very accurate. Its wide .452 diameter bullet of 230 grains was generally considered a man stopper as was the Smith And Wesson 357 Magnum. This was up until the mid 1960's when a Marine named Lee Jurras founded Super Vel Cartridge Company.

Jurras introduced hollow point bullets that were effective, that opened up on impact to a bigger diameter. The main stopping cartridge up until then was the 357 Magnum introduced by Smith And Wesson in 1935. Up until 1935 the most effective bullet was fired from the 1847 Colt Walker cap and ball revolver. The well known 38 Special, designed in 1899, used by almost every police agency in America was generally ineffective as a man stopper with its either 158 or 200 grain lead bullets in use then.

The above was a lead in to OTHER cartridges in common use these days, the 9mm Luger that used to be tremendous for penetration but not for stopping power as it only had a full metal jacket and suffered from over penetration; and the 40 S&W which is a modern cartridge and has always been offered in a hollow point version to my knowledge.

Now to the caption under the 1911-A1, are you one who depends upon a 9mm for self defense or does your self defense cartridge start with the number 4?

Dennis

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Alafoto Loc: Montgomery, AL

Nice little bit of history, Dennis. I had forgotten about Super Vel. I carried a cylinder full in my S&W Model 19 when I was a young police officer. JHPs of course. I don't remember the bullet weight any more. Anything but RNL bullets were frowned upon by the department hierarchy, but most of us carried something other then the 158 gr leads that the department preferred. If I was forced to shoot someone, I wanted them to go down and stay there. If they died later, that was their problem. Likely, I would have been brought up on departmental charges if involved in a shooting, but I always thought my life was worth more that anyone who pulled a gun on me. We bought our own weapons in those days and the requirement was a Colt or Smith & Wesson revolver with a 4" barrel or longer chambered in .38 caliber or larger.

thom w Loc: San Jose, CA

1911s come in various calibers. I have owned one in 9mm, and another in 38 super, and there is a 22 kit for them as well.

Alafoto Loc: Montgomery, AL

The .38 super is a rare bird. It seem that back when people in Mexico observed the laws, civilians were not permitted to own a pistol chambered for any military caliber. That eliminated the .45 acp and the 9 mm. The .38 super was intended to supply a weapon with roughly the ballistics of the 9 mm. I don't remember much else about them except that some daredevils loaded them up, producing chamber pressures barely below the maximum pressure that the pistols were rated at and achieved some astounding muzzle velocities.

WNYShooter Loc: WNY

Not rare at all in open division pistol competition. Both of my race guns, made by my friend Dan at Bedell Custom, are in 38 Super.

pendennis

The 1911 is my favorite self-defense pistol, and I have a number of them. Around the house, I keep a Kimber Ultra Carry in .45ACP, with 230gr Winchester Silver Tips. It's a good cartridge, and the round does expand from the short barrel (test fired into gelatin blocks).

Right now I carry a LTWT Combat Commander chambered in the Super .38. I also have a custom-built 1911 from Fusion that I found used. Here's the bonus with the Fusion - It's chambered in Super .38. 9mm Para, and 9mm Winchester. Each caliber has its own barrel bushing, recoil spring, barrel, etc. It's all "plug and play". If blindfolded, I can tell between 9mm and the other calibers, but the Super .38 and 9mm Winchester are impossible to tell apart. The 9mm Winchester is reloads only, and Super .38 the same.

The Super .38 had a bad reputation for inaccuracy. However, that's because it was head spaced on the rim. Newer models are now head spaced on the case mouth, a huge improvement. My second 1911 (from the 50's) was a Super .38 that I sold almost as fast as I bought it; it wouldn't group in the same county.

One of the more interesting pistols in the 1911 class, is the Springfield EMP4. It's chambered in 9mm, but has a fore-shortened grip frame. Great carry pistol. Until recently, I modified 1911 grip panels so I could get something comfortable.

pendennis

I noticed that a lot of the PD's which switched from 9mm, to .40S&W, are going back to the 9mm. There's been such an improvement in 9mm, because of the reduced recoil and reduced ammo costs.

Like others, I bought three S&W M&P's, all in .40S&W several years ago. However, the cost of ammo started getting out of hand, so I got a couple of Storm Lake drop-in barrels, some new 9mm mags, and I'm a happy camper. The only remaining .40S&W I have, is a Shield. It's small, and I don't spend hours and hours at the range with it; only enough to keep proficient.

I mentioned in another post, that my carry pistol is a LTWT Commander, in Super .38. I've carried a 1911 Commander-sized pistol in .45ACP.

dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho

Yes that is all correct. I have owned them all except for 10mm.

Dennis

dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho

dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho

I started my career with a department issue S&W Model 10 in 1971. Ammunition was Remington 125 grain hollow point as I recall. I carried it until my Academy class in 1972 when we were issued S&W Model 39 pistols in 9mm of course. As I recall ammunition was probably 124 grain hollow points. I carried it until I left 10 years later. I was allowed to buy the gun so took it with me. All during my career I carried a 1911 as my off duty gun generally with some type of factory hollow point.

The Model 19 is a great revolver. I have owned and carried one in all barrel lengths except 3 inch. Beautiful gun.

Thank you for serving.

Dennis

dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho

I am with WNY Shooter who says the 38 Super is not rare. They are out there. I have owned just one but it was not very accurate most likely due to how Colt used to chamber the barrel regarding headspace. I feel it is an excellent cartridge. Jeff Cooper used to write fondly of it as a Trail Pistol.

As I recall you are correct about Mexican laws not allowing any caliber that was a military chambering. Not sure if that is still true or not.

Dennis

dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho

I just ran across a notation a couple of days ago in a gun related Internet site about the 9X23 caliber. Is it still in use? Is it a renamed 38 Super? I have never owned one but liked the ballistics. Then it seemed to bite the dust.

Dennis

dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho

A great post. Thanks very much. Nothing to disagree with.

Dennis

dennis2146 Loc: Eastern Idaho

I recently tried a friend’s S&W 40 M&P. It jammed at least twice from each magazine and the trigger pull was at least a half mile long. He wanted me to test fire it for him as he had never shot it. I told him to sell it. He didn’t like it either. Yours is probably a great gun but not that one.

Dennis

Alafoto Loc: Montgomery, AL

Really? I had no idea.