selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

"It" is ISO. Here's the monkey wrench:



"Flexible Program" (Nikon's term) keeps the exposure value (EV) constant while trading off aperture vs. shutter speed.

Exposure compensation (EC) moves up and down the EV scale. It changes the light value (LV) setting for a specific ISO.

ISO also changes the LV for a specific EV. At ISO 100, LV=EV.

So if you are in Program mode and Auto ISO you have to consider whether the EC dial changes the ISO or the EV or both.

Leinik Loc: Rochester NY

One thing to keep in mind is that light meters are designed to give you an "average" exposure whatever the subject and regardless of the fact that the subject is originally lighter or darker than a "middle gray" (the known 18% Kodak gray card). So it will lighten a dark subject and darken a light subject (i.e. any picture on sand or snow). A response to that is to measure the light of your scene on a "middle gray surface" (the palm of your hand, grass, a 18% gray card,...). The nice part is that if you are outdoors with a constant light (for some time) you do not need to adjust your exposure and the results are less prone to errors induced by the density of the subjects photographed. The current (and probably best) solution is to use a mirrorless camera whose electronic viewfinder will help you (pre) visualize your exposure (and even have the histogram visible).

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

I did in fact take the M version first and then the P version but I was taking the photos handheld and when I looked at them on the back of the camera they weren't too well aligned as I had shifted the camera up some taking the P version so I just took the M version again at the same settings. Here's the original M version taken first. Looks like it took me 36 seconds to switch the camera to P mode and take that photo, but I wasn't trying to hurry.

(Download)

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

You typically don't have to hold anything using P mode either. On my cameras AEL can be set up as a toggle -- press on, press off.

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

Getting compositions to match didn't really matter.

That was a static scene. The only things that moved were tiny, a couple of pedestrians. You set the ISO manually to that variable didn't change and as I showed in my previous post, moving the Flexible Program (whatever you camera calls it) does not change the EV.

Also, your exposures were not based on the Center Weighted Average meter reading. They were instead based on the highlight warnings. Not everyone gets to see them before tripping the shutter. But look at the results. The sky where you were getting the highlight warnings is blown out (RGB=255,255,255) and it's likely that the raw file is also blown out at the same place. Nevertheless you ended up with the same EV setting after adjusting the EC to -0.3 for the Program Mode image.

But if you had used Auto ISO and not relied on the highlight warnings something else might have happened. If you had needed to adjust the EC by more than +/- 0.3 stops it might have changed the ISO as well as the EV if you were not relying on the highlight warnings.

But the bottom line is that once you lock in the ISO you can get to the same exposure with two dials in either mode - the aperture and shutter speed in Manual mode and the EC and the Flexible Program in Program mode.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

So you're happy using Manual. Manual is easy. Program mode is likewise easy. I don't know anybody using Program mode who thinks first, "what would be the best exposure settings on Manual and now I need to match those." Program mode is a different approach as I just demonstrated but it permits the user the same degree of control under the constraint of producing a reasonable exposure (my cameras provide EC adjustment over a 10 stop range) and if that user is familiar with Program mode then it's at least just as easy to use.

When the first Program mode cameras arrived I was shooting mostly 120 film and often my camera of choice was my Hasselblad. I looked at Program mode and dismissed it out of hand. Those first Program mode cameras did not have a Program shift function. When that function showed up a few years later I looked again and immediately recognized my EV locked Hassy lenses and I said to myself, "OK, they fixed it." And I started to use it because it worked the same way my Hasselblad worked by locking the exposure as a constant and letting me select the best compromise shutter-f/stop combination. I was already accustomed to thinking that way.

I still prefer to think that way. I consider exposure first and I don't want to confuse that concern with this or that shutter speed - f/stop. I'm going to use my camera meter and so the most direct way for me to consider exposure first is to set the ISO and then select the EC value. Usually I'm in the EC plus range and so I leave my cameras set to EC plus values. Once I've determined the EC value I want I've set exposure and the next step is to select the f/stop and/or shutter speed with the Program shift control and click.

Of course there are more appropriate ways to work under specific conditions. But what I describe above is an excellent way to work for general photography. I like that it prioritizes setting exposure before deciding what specific shutter speed and f/stop to use. Maybe that's because of my decades experience using EV locked cameras. Obviously when fast action is involved shutter speed moves to the fore and becomes the critical concern. In that case using the camera on Manual with auto-ISO makes sense or using the Shutter priority mode.

Bottom line: The original point that I made in this ridiculously dragged out thread remains correct. You don't lose control by using Program mode. Program mode permits the user full control of the camera's exposure settings under the constraint of producing a reasonable exposure.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

Yep, which is why all the way back near the beginning of this thread I said, "I mostly use my camera in Program mode and I get the same results I would otherwise get using manual mode."

BebuLamar

l.
Program mode sucks. I always have to do something to counter its choice. So it's a lot more work for me. It never makes the choice I would have made in manual. Then I would have to resort to program shift, EC etc.. which is more work. I would use the program mode if I can make the program behaves my way. In another word I would use it if it's programmable not programmed from the factory.

joecichjr Loc: Chicago S. Suburbs, Illinois, USA

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

It's fine for you not to like it. It's more work for you because you're unaccustomed to it, but it's not really more work than taking the photo in Manual. In Manual you have to set the f/stop, meter the scene and set the exposure/shutter speed. Program mode does the same thing with no additional work required. Using Program shift and EC are the same amount of work: https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-711661-11.html#12567839

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

However, you don't have to do that if you ignore the meter and set the exposure based on experience. See Manual Exposure without a Meter.

While you might need to occasionally recover some shadow in formation that approach is very reliable.

A manual exposure for "Areas in open shade, clear sunlight" calls for LV 12. In your images above, the sky was blown out because it was exposed at LV 10.7, more than a stop overexposed.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

Very few photographers do that. And regardless of experience using the camera meter with an understanding of how it functions is overall more accurate. I prefer more accurate.

I noted when I posted those photos: "Using the highlight warning I decided to let the backlit sky through the trees go for a reasonable lightness SOOC JPEG." My goal was a serviceable camera JPEG. Had I reduced the exposure 1.3 stops I'd have gotten the mistake you see below.

(Download)

selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA

More accurate what?

A "serviceable camera JPEG" SOOC is the wrong goal. The ultimate goal is a serviceable raw file. That's a raw file with no blown [non-specular] highlights, possibly but not necessarily exposed to the right.

There are four variables in play - the light shining on the scene (LV), the ISO, the aperture and the shutter speed.

Sunny 16 at LV 14.7 (or LV 15) covers them elegantly for the brightest natural case which is full sunlight. That same logic is easily applied to lower light values.

Modern cameras let us record raw information from which we can easily recover shadow information.

It doesn't really matter if the JPEG SOOC is a little darker or lighter than the final image. What matters is having enough data in the raw file to make the optimum image.

All of this can be accomplished without using the camera's meter once you understand the principles.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

A more accurate exposure determination.

A serviceable camera SOOC JPEG was the right goal for me when all I was doing was creating a demo for a web forum. Those JPEGs were fine for my purpose and my exposure choice and method was appropriate given the goal.

Picture Taker Loc: Michigan Thumb

If you know your camera and photography and all situations you use all the programs available at times. What is good in one situation is not for another.