bobmcculloch Loc: NYC, NY

Received from another correspondent, seems appropriate here based on previous posts,

Scary Obituary

In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the
University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the
Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior: "A democracy is always
temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent
form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until
the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous
gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority
always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from
the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally
collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a
dictatorship."

"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the
beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200
years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage."
The Obituary follows:

Born 1776, Died 2012
It doesn't hurt to read this several times.
Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law in
St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning
the last Presidential election:

Number of States won by: Obama: 19 McCain: 29
Square miles of land won by: Obama: 580,000 McCain: 2,427,000
Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 million McCain: 143 million
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Obama: 13.2 McCain: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory
McCain won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens
of the country.

Obama territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in low
income tenements and living off various forms of government
welfare..."

Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the
"complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of
democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population
already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million
criminal invaders called illegal's - and they vote - then we can say
goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years.

If you are in favor of this, then by all means, delete this message.

If you are not, then pass this along to help everyone realize just how
much is at stake, knowing that apathy is the greatest danger to our
freedom..

This is truly scary

sarge69 Loc: Ft Myers, FL

---> From apathy to dependence;

We are seeing the future - Think about it seriously.

Used to say ' Give them an inch - they'll take a mile '

Sarge69
Won't be long before the government will say ' Hey, you got a 4 bedroom house and only 3 of you living there. Here's a homeless person to use your spare room.' OH, and put a tv in there for him/her.

richnash46 Loc: Texas

I would agree with most of this proposition but I actually am of the opinion that we are already at the apathy to dependence stage! Professor Olson's facts and figures are very telling, and very sobering! :( :shock: :(

ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.

Egypt lasted 3000 years. Rome existed for more than 2000 years if you count the Eastern Roman Empire. Greece managed to hang on for 600 years before becoming part of Rome. The Harappan civilization in the Indus Valley another 2000 years. England did ok from 1588 and the defeat of the Spanish Armada and they are still viable more than 400 years later...

Snopes rates this as Mostly False. http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/athenian.asp

Perhaps naming a few of these "greatest civilizations" that crumbled after 2 centuries might be instructive. I can think of a few city-states that fill the bill, but doubt most of us would consider them among the greatest civilizations and many I doubt people have even heard of.

richnash46 Loc: Texas

Excellent points Eric, what say you concerning Professor Olson's statistics, bogus perhaps?

:?:

gmcase Loc: Galt's Gulch

Regardless of the time line in years the sequential rise and fall is what has happened in this country. We are seeing the consequences of plundering the treasury for special interests that vote for the pandering bastards called politicians who practice plunder under the guise of the law. Somehow when the government steals people accept it. The clientele of these looters are those who refuse to work and corporate welfare recipients. Both are leeches and their parasitical lifestyles are over loading the producers ability to pull the wagon. You can argue over the extent each draws blood but both need some serious trimming.

sarge69 Loc: Ft Myers, FL

GMCASE --> :thumbup: :thumbup:

ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.

Not bogus, but misleading. For example:

It also encompasses those citizens who are among the richest people in the nation. I didn't see any actual numbers about median income comparisons between the counties won by Obama vs. McCain. Would you like to compare the median income of Palm Beach County in Florida to some of the counties that went for McCain in Mississippi?

ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.

Regardless of the time line... everything evolves and that includes societies and civilizations. Why would you expect the United States to be any different? That's the point Tyler is making. It's not the fault of the nation, but the result of human failings. Tyler was pointing out these same human failings have caused the downfall of many great civilizations (not all, of course, military conquest is also a pretty definitive cause for a society's downfall), why should we expect our own nation, with those same human failings, to survive when others haven't?

First ya gotta fix the people and no one has yet been successful in doing that.

The longest lived civilizations - Egypt and Ancient China, for example - have also been the most rigidly governed, the most tyrannical and the ones that equate the king/pharaoh/ruler as god. Personal freedom wasn't even a concept in those civilizations!

Is that what you want?

gmcase Loc: Galt's Gulch

False dilemma, if you are saying nations with high levels of individual liberty cannot have staying power. If nations have little individual liberty in order to exist then I say they deserve swift and complete deaths. So no, I don't want totalitarianism and the fact we are moving that way and concurrently sinking into the abyss of collapse testifies that totalitarianism is not a guarantee of long term survival. The most brutal regimes in modern history had relatively short lives. China is a little different but they embraced more economic and personal liberty than others so they have breathed life into their nation that will last as long as there is a progression in that direction.

ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.

It's not a false dilemma, but historical reality. The whole point of the original post was that nations with high levels of individual liberty are short-lived.

richnash46 Loc: Texas

Well, here's the skinny on the Olson statistics; http://www.factcheck.org/2009/01/unreported-stats/

And here's the scoop on the Athenian part of it; and it actually references those stats as being from the Bush/Gore election in 2000, so it appears that someone just changed the names to Obama/McCain and used the same numbers! Now why would someone do that? http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/athenian.asp

:hunf: :hunf:

ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.

Considering who is being slammed by the spam, I guess we can rule out George Soros as the originator.

LARRYR. Loc: Saint Martinville, La.

Want be in the future, my son couldn't find a job, spare
bed room now being occupied by a homeless person( Our
Son) Tried getting him to get in to goverment job, I
was told he, had one already, just like those in the
White House, he has a place to stay and doesn't have
to do any work while staying there.

sarge69 Loc: Ft Myers, FL

Yupper, daughter was here for a while and then got a job. But the job is an hour away so she graces us with her presence when she isn't out partying with her boyfriend.

Hopefully this is temporary until she finds a place.

Best part is she doesn't eat much.

Sarge