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Low Light Noise Reduction
Aug 2, 2019 12:59:14 #
I recently acquired the Z7 with the 50mm 1.8 lens. The combo is very sharp and I have posted before about doing a small crop of a hand held shot with great results. What I am not happy about is the low light performance of the camera. Shooting indoors at ISO 100 and 1/4 sec (with tripod), and then enlarging to check focus on back of camera, there is a tremendous amount of color noise. At ISO 1600, not really usable without a lot of process effort.
I have been exploring a way to reduce the noise in camera and maybe the experts here will tell me if this makes any sense.
Typically, as a non-pro, If I make any mistake in low light it is to under expose. This means adjustment in post that brings out more noise. So I tried setting the exposure compensation to +1 (other amounts might be better, but that is what I tried). Then in post I darken a bit and this seems to hide the noise.
Does this make sense? Is there a better way to deal with this other than buying the Z6?
I have been exploring a way to reduce the noise in camera and maybe the experts here will tell me if this makes any sense.
Typically, as a non-pro, If I make any mistake in low light it is to under expose. This means adjustment in post that brings out more noise. So I tried setting the exposure compensation to +1 (other amounts might be better, but that is what I tried). Then in post I darken a bit and this seems to hide the noise.
Does this make sense? Is there a better way to deal with this other than buying the Z6?
Aug 2, 2019 13:23:00 #
It makes perfectly good sense. In effect, you are using ETTR techniques to make your exposure. This inherently reduces noise as a side effect of the additional exposure.
If you test your camera's abilities to handle additional exposure, you'll be able to know just exactly how much you can add before irretrievably losing details in the brighter areas of the scene.
--Bob
If you test your camera's abilities to handle additional exposure, you'll be able to know just exactly how much you can add before irretrievably losing details in the brighter areas of the scene.
--Bob
John Howard wrote:
I recently acquired the Z7 with the 50mm 1.8 lens.... (show quote)
Aug 2, 2019 13:39:22 #
Sounds like you've answered your own question. If over exposing has solved your problem then you have learned something. I shoot with Nikon as well, currently with the D850 and have found with all my cameras a properly exposed image is far less noisy than an under exposed pulled from the shadows. Of coarse you can't get the entire dynamic range in any one shot so I always, always expose properly for the subject. I do this using spot metering and now that I'm shooting in raw will allow for at least 1 stop over exposed because I know I can pull the highlights back in post. This helps with the shadows and accumulated noise. For the longest time I used NIK noise reduction as it seemed to be the best I could find in that it left most of the detail in tact when reducing noise. I have since found ON 1 Raw which allows you to Only remove Color noise if that's your target. I normally only find color noise in the deep shadows and since not part of the main subject are hard to detect in the first place, unless your pixel peeping in the 200% range. I'm starting to get less aggressive at pixel peeping at high magnifications. Why, first these imperfections are not noticeable when viewed at regular viewing magnifications and second I never print anything larger than 16x20. If it ain't there we can't see it. On another note, a true photographer will learn their cameras short comings and learned to shoot around them. If properly exposed images at say, ISO 1000 are the max acceptability range then learn to shot around these short comings.
Aug 2, 2019 13:48:24 #
Aug 2, 2019 13:57:47 #
John Howard wrote:
I recently acquired the Z7 with the 50mm 1.8 lens.... (show quote)
If you are getting noise at ISO 100 then something is seriously wrong, possibly massive under exposure. You shouldn't really see noise at anything under 1600 or even higher with any modern camera. Shadows are under exposure. That's what makes them shadows. You will most likely have better luck cranking that IOS up for proper exposure. The right exposure reduces noise better than low ISO on modern cameras.
...Cam
Aug 3, 2019 06:28:34 #
CamB wrote:
If you are getting noise at ISO 100 then something is seriously wrong, possibly massive under exposure. You shouldn't really see noise at anything under 1600 or even higher with any modern camera. Shadows are under exposure. That's what makes them shadows. You will most likely have better luck cranking that IOS up for proper exposure. The right exposure reduces noise better than low ISO on modern cameras.
...Cam
...Cam
He is getting electronic noise and cranking up the ISO is going to give him more noise, this is an inherent problem with higher resolution cameras and the result of photo site density. My D800, D810 and D850 all have the same problem, but my D500, D7200, D610 and Z6 do not have the same problem. The Z6 is by far the best low noise high ISO performer of the Nikon line up even beating out the D5 in low noise high ISO performance.
Aug 3, 2019 09:39:15 #
John Howard wrote:
I recently acquired the Z7 with the 50mm 1.8 lens.... (show quote)
Post a sample image . . .
I think you understand the problem - underexposure means noise, but using exposure comp can lead to unpredictable results. Better to decide what is important in the image, expose to the right as much as you can without blowing important highlights, shoot raw and use a quality raw converter like Lightroom, Adobe Camera Raw, DXO Photolab2, Capture One, etc. and you will greatly improve the image quality and consistency of results.
I took this a couple of nights ago with a D800 and a Nikkor 70-200 F2.8 FL. I like the D800 over the D810 because of the color noise in the D810.
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Aug 3, 2019 10:03:29 #
Thanks to Bob Martin Cam and Gene. Very good feedback. I’ll not post the example photo because I was just shooting the wall and ceiling in my office to test and learn the camera capabilities. Last question - is it possible the LCD screen exaggerates the color noise? I am preparing for a trip where there will be multiple low light shoots and I will want to know the feedback I see is correct.
Aug 3, 2019 11:17:40 #
I went back and looked at the images both on the back of the camera and on computer. I think part of the problem is that the LCD on the camera shows the JPG preview of the image, not the raw file. There is a lot of color noise in that image. When I load the raw file on my computer and open in LR, first you see the JPG preview, with a lot of noise, then when the raw file opens, the noise is reduced. That being said the problem is not as bad as I thought, but still the Z7 at ISO 1600 is not as clean as a D850 or D810. Adding an EV of +1 helps also. Thanks to all.
Aug 3, 2019 11:23:34 #
Brucej67 wrote:
He is getting electronic noise and cranking up the ISO is going to give him more noise, this is an inherent problem with higher resolution cameras and the result of photo site density. My D800, D810 and D850 all have the same problem, but my D500, D7200, D610 and Z6 do not have the same problem. The Z6 is by far the best low noise high ISO performer of the Nikon line up even beating out the D5 in low noise high ISO performance.
He should not be getting noise at ISO 100. My D7500 is noiseless right through iso 1600 and even then I have to look hard for it. I think his problem is under exposure and trying to boost it in post.
...Cam
Aug 3, 2019 11:31:31 #
John Howard wrote:
Thanks to Bob Martin Cam and Gene. Very good feedback. I’ll not post the example photo because I was just shooting the wall and ceiling in my office to test and learn the camera capabilities. Last question - is it possible the LCD screen exaggerates the color noise? I am preparing for a trip where there will be multiple low light shoots and I will want to know the feedback I see is correct.
Don’t trust the screen. Read your histogram. If you shoot the right exposure you can go to some outrageous ISOs with no real noise ‘problem’. A little noise is not that big a deal anyway. Think of all the great pictures made with grainy TRI-X.
...Cam
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Aug 3, 2019 14:38:57 #
John Howard wrote:
I recently acquired the Z7 with the 50mm 1.8 lens.... (show quote)
The Z6 has very good low noise performance (equivalent to the Nikon DF). The Z7, not so much (equivalent to the D850).
If you shooting low light of stationary scenes, you might consider multiple subs and stacking to reduce noise. I'm sure the camera also has long exposure and high ISO noise reduction features; maybe try them.
bwa
Aug 4, 2019 18:57:58 #
Brucej67 wrote:
He is getting electronic noise and cranking up the ISO is going to give him more noise, this is an inherent problem with higher resolution cameras and the result of photo site density. My D800, D810 and D850 all have the same problem, but my D500, D7200, D610 and Z6 do not have the same problem. The Z6 is by far the best low noise high ISO performer of the Nikon line up even beating out the D5 in low noise high ISO performance.
How does the Z6 compare to the D3s? I have compared the D5 to the D3s and was disappointed that I got more noise with the D5. The image was brighter and sharper, but more noise. So I did not buy it. I am staying with my D3s because it's the lowest noise so far. I have not shot a Z6 because I don't want to have to buy the adaptor. Just wondering if any Nikon shooters out there have compared a D3s to the Z6?
Aug 4, 2019 19:28:28 #
tomcat wrote:
How does the Z6 compare to the D3s? I have compared the D5 to the D3s and was disappointed that I got more noise with the D5. The image was brighter and sharper, but more noise. So I did not buy it. I am staying with my D3s because it's the lowest noise so far. I have not shot a Z6 because I don't want to have to buy the adaptor. Just wondering if any Nikon shooters out there have compared a D3s to the Z6?
I use DxO Mark's Low Light ISO for low light performance. Not a bad start for low light performance comparison.
Camera Comparison - DxO Mark Information - Sorted by LL ISO (Sports) Corrected
Low LL ISO Corrected
Camera Light ISO Score to FF (Canon: x1.6^2=2.56)
---------------------- --------- ------ -----------------------------------------------------
Sony A7 III *** 3730 100 3730
Sony A7S 3702 87 3702
Panasonic Lumix DC-S1R 3525 100 3525
Sony A7R III 3523 100 3523
Sony A9 3517 92 3517
Sony A7R II 3434 98 3434
Panasonic Lumix DC-S1 3333 95 3333
Nikon Z6 3299 95 3299
Pentax K1 3280 96 3280
Nikon DF 3279 89 3279
Nikon D3s 3253 82 3253
Sony A6500 1405 85 3161 (Sony APS-C 2.25x) A6300 & A6400 much the same
Nikon D4s 3074 89 3074
Sony A6000 1347 82 3031 (Sony APS-C 2.25x)
Canon 5D IV 2995 91 2995
Sony A7S II 2993 85 2993
Nikon D600 2980 94 2980
Nikon D500 1324 84 2979 (APS-C 2.25x)
Nikon D800E 2979 96 2979
Nikon D750 2956 93 2956
Canon 80D 1135 79 2906 (APS-C)
Canon 6D II 2862 85 2862
Nikon D810 2853 97 2853
Canon 1Dx ($$$) 2786 82 2786
Canon 7D II 1082 70 2770 (APS-C)
Sony A7R 2746 95 2746
Canon EOS R 2742 89 2742
Nikon Z7 2668 99 2668
Nikon D850 2660 100 2660
Low LL ISO Corrected
Camera Light ISO Score to FF (Canon: x1.6^2=2.56)
---------------------- --------- ------ -----------------------------------------------------
Sony A7 III *** 3730 100 3730
Sony A7S 3702 87 3702
Panasonic Lumix DC-S1R 3525 100 3525
Sony A7R III 3523 100 3523
Sony A9 3517 92 3517
Sony A7R II 3434 98 3434
Panasonic Lumix DC-S1 3333 95 3333
Nikon Z6 3299 95 3299
Pentax K1 3280 96 3280
Nikon DF 3279 89 3279
Nikon D3s 3253 82 3253
Sony A6500 1405 85 3161 (Sony APS-C 2.25x) A6300 & A6400 much the same
Nikon D4s 3074 89 3074
Sony A6000 1347 82 3031 (Sony APS-C 2.25x)
Canon 5D IV 2995 91 2995
Sony A7S II 2993 85 2993
Nikon D600 2980 94 2980
Nikon D500 1324 84 2979 (APS-C 2.25x)
Nikon D800E 2979 96 2979
Nikon D750 2956 93 2956
Canon 80D 1135 79 2906 (APS-C)
Canon 6D II 2862 85 2862
Nikon D810 2853 97 2853
Canon 1Dx ($$$) 2786 82 2786
Canon 7D II 1082 70 2770 (APS-C)
Sony A7R 2746 95 2746
Canon EOS R 2742 89 2742
Nikon Z7 2668 99 2668
Nikon D850 2660 100 2660
Aug 4, 2019 20:25:36 #
bwana wrote:
I use DxO Mark's Low Light ISO for low light perfo... (show quote)
Thanks bwana for taking time to do this. I did not realize that DxO already had done the test on the Z cameras. The data tell me that the D3s and the Z6 are pretty much identical in low light. Now this presents a "problem" for me because I'm going to rent one from my Nikon NPS connections this Fall and shoot some volleyball in my HS low-light gyms. The D3s is outstanding in low light and now that the data show an equivalency from the Z6, this new technology will help me a lot with faster target acquisition and fps. I love my D3s for the quality of the images, but it sometimes will "miss" focusing quickly enough during basketball. Now I just gotta figure out a way to tell my wife the "news"....I really appreciate your promptness
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