DavidPine Loc: Fredericksburg, TX

Many of us have made images that we are proud of and we seek recognition of sorts for the sake of our egos. I call this seeking "attaboys". But do attaboys help a photographer develop or improve skills? I think not. Not too long ago I decided that I was skilled enough to enter print competitions nationally. I'm glad I did, however, the outcome wasn't what I was expecting. In the least. First, I had to pay to enter and then I had to pay extra for a verbal critique report. I slapped out one of my animal images and said in my mind, "there, that will get me recognition!" Boy, I was wrong. I received an email telling me that I was given a score of 78 and I could download my verbal critique at the attached site. I did, and I listened carefully to the person, who identified himself as the judge. I was amazed at the professional delivery chewing up and spitting my prize image. The judge was spot on without any question left in my mind. I told myself that I would be more decerning if I ever went back to that well. Well, I did. I was much more careful with my next attempt. Same routine. Well, this prize image was given an even lower score of 77. I thought, what could have possibly gone wrong, after all, I paid close attention to the details. I received a similar download and listened carefully to the judge who opened up my image in photoshop and showed me exactly what he found negative. No argument from me because he was absolutely correct. Today, I am still pursuing a high graded image. I want to break 80 which will move my image forward for more consideration. I am benefiting from all of this. I am more careful with my compositions, highlights, shadows, and presentations. My point in this narrative is that we should be able to experience something similar to this on UHH. Our critique section is much too generous in handing out attaboys rather than pointing out how our images can get better. A good critique is priceless in our pursuit of making excellent images.

Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

UHH's Critique Forum had only seven submissions in June. For Your Consideration had 78. As you probably know, that section has a wider purpose; however, the majority of postings asked for feedback.

What the two sections have in common is that most comments come from enthusiastic and talented amateurs whose own viewpoints and interests (experience, subject, pp) vary widely. I think that for the purposes of the majority of UHH regulars, this "set up" works well because of what photography is to us: an enjoyable hobby for artistic expression or for documenting the beauty of the world around us.

For those with ambitions of turning pro or who are highly goal oriented, I can see a section of pro critiques being valuable. On the other hand, I've read more than once that Gene51 asks his students what they feel about a photo they took, its strengths and weaknesses, or what they hoped to accomplish (Gene, please correct if I'm way off in my "quote" ).

It seems to me that a mentor or personal guide would be of greater value here than a rigid critique system.

al13

emmons267 Loc: Arizona, Valley of the Sun

I think the 'Advice from Pros' section is a very valuable section in this respect.

DaveO Loc: Northeast CT

I'll bet your receptive attitude has paid huge dividends! Excellent share and thank you!!

jeep_daddy Loc: Prescott AZ

You couldn't be more right on about the people here on UHH. In the photo gallery I see so many attaboys on really really bad images that I want to throw up. But that's just because there are a lot of people out there that are amateurs that are simply nice people that say nice things to everybody no matter what. You sound like you like to do wildlife pictures as I do too. But I remember when I got started doing wildlife (birds) back in 2010, what my first pictures looked like. Without any critique I improved my style simply by shooting a lot and then seeing what my comrades were doing with their images. I was/am always impressed with their images much more so than mine, so I try to mimic them.

I didn't "really" start to improve until I joined a photo club. In fact, I belong to 2 of them and they operate totally different from one another. One of them has a monthly meeting where they do a slideshow of images taken by members that are critiqued by a pro. Throughout the month, the members can go on outings with one another and take pictures, or simply abide by one of the picture taking themes of the month and then submit 3 photos that are no more than 1000 pixels on the long side along with one title slide that you put your name and assignment. The critiquer doesn't critique the title slide but it does tell the members who the next 3 pictures belong to. Let me tell you, it doesn't take a professional critiquer to know when an image is great. When a really nice photo hits the projector, you will hear all the oooohhhhhs and aaaawwwwsss from the crowd. But the critiquers do point out such things as composition, subject relativity, distractions, what crop might be more appealing, softness, sharpness, what is good, what is not, etc.

Like you, at my first meeting where my images of wildlife or landscapes were submitted I thought I had winners too. But I found out, like you did, that the pro photographers really do know what they are talking about. My images all had something wrong that could have been better. It has helped me a lot. When all those pictures are critiqued, not just yours, you can see what is good and bad on all of them. If the critiquer is really good, you pickup a lot of tips on how to improve your work.

The other club that I belong to shows everyone's work each month, but they don't critique. But they do have judges from another club look at all of the monthly submissions and the 1st, 2nd and 3rd place images are recognized with ribbons etc.. The 1st place winner is entered into a pool of all 12 monthly winners and prizes given out at the Christmas dinner at the end of the year. This club also has special meets to teach such things as night photography, (milkyway and startrails), long exposures, panoramas, stacking, macro, and studio lighting etc. So I learn something from each club.

Bottom line is if you have club near you, check them out. You might learn a thing or two and enjoy meeting some people at the same time. I'm afraid that UHH has a few trolls that always seem to get under your skin if you let them. I've had some disagreements with some but if the disagreements are civil and there isn't any name calling etc, I'm okay with it. I've even had a small brush up with some of the regulars here but we can always agree to disagree in a civil manner. Stay away from the Attic unless you have really thick skin and wish to be called names. It doesn't matter which leanings you have, the other side will call you names.

DaveO Loc: Northeast CT

I post a few just to share my efforts with other amateurs that are working on their improvement as well. Some are simply captures that show neat stuff even though the quality is not there. Should have seen the real junk that I started with!

burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC

This is a very mature observation!

One problem with professional opinions from judging organizations is that they usually are just one person's evaluation. Even if you get great insight and advice, as the OP says he did, you're still only getting one opinion. That person's point of reference is unique, but incomplete.

A forum like UHH presents a couple of barriers to getting honest critiques of one's work. First, is the element of decorum. Most folks are afraid to be critical of others' work, lest that person be critical of their work. If you are a critic here, you risk being lambasted by folks who think you're an evil ogre for suggesting that their snapshot isn't a perfect photograph. On the other hand, if you have a thin skin, you won't grow.

Perhaps there should be an "ask the mentors" chat room where the ground rules are that:

1) Posters of images are seeking genuine, CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.
1a) Posters are encouraged to explain or describe verbally what they were trying to achieve/say/show in their images.
2) Critics are encouraged to be honest, but kindly CONSTRUCTIVE.
3) All constructive opinions stated are EXPLAINED so that the learning photographer gets the "WHY".

When I was a high school student learning photography as a hobby, one day my school's journalism teacher saw the camera around my neck and quite literally grabbed me by my collar as I was walking to class. She gave me an evil, conspiratorial grin, and asked, shaking her head up and down, "You're going to take pictures for the newspaper and yearbook, aren't you?"

What followed was an offer to pay all my expenses for all the candid work I could deliver. I didn't bargain for the education I got in the process! The steady stream of suggestions and comments she provided were instrumental in shaping my "eye." I learned the technical side from books and periodicals and discussions with my camera dealer and a couple of local pros, but my vision was shaped largely by Mrs. Richardson's patient commentaries on my work. Sometimes, her comments felt brutal, but they were always helpful.

Six years after high school, when I joined a yearbook printer and school portrait photofinisher as an AV producer, my manager was the Director of Marketing and Creative Services. He was an art director with a keen eye. He had 26 deep file cabinets full of tear sheets of ads, photos, and commercial illustrations pulled from periodicals dating back 30 years, and referred me to them often for ideas. He, too, helped me learn. His approach was much less journalistic, but much more stylistic and detailed.

Some of my best help came from fellow students in school. I would show them my work and make notes of what they responded to most favorably. That helped me gravitate towards those approaches to composition, lighting, moment, subject matter...

My point to this story is that it takes all the help you can get from various sources. Mentors are great! I had two outstanding ones. READING about photography and examining the works of others — especially those with notable success — is also a big help. Seminars, classes, and photo safaris are great, if you have the time and means. But probably the best advice I can give anyone is to keep at it. You can learn a lot just from keeping your eyes on great films and great photos. I find myself watching a lot of shows on PBS and noticing the photography (composition, sets and settings, color and contrast, backgrounds, bokeh, lighting, use of depth of field, focal length, etc.). I'll check out any photo show at a museum I visit, and pick up any "coffee table" book of photos. Do this enough, and you'll know great work when you see it, and "also ran" work when you see that.

Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

Thank you, I've evolved quite far from when I got all huffy over criticism Captain C made about my terrible edit

This is good to hear from a pro, because I've read more than one article by a contest judge who admits they all have personal biases and preferences. Apparently, there isn't much that is purely objective outside of technical issues.


This is actually what For Your Consideration is about. Sometimes people prefer to not give any upfront "explanation" because they are solely interested in reactions. Though FYC went through a rocky stretch, the current managers are highly committed to keeping the conversations respectful and constructive.

For us amateurs, giving the WHY can be difficult 'cause sometimes we don't know what we don't know

Referencing emmons267's suggestion that "Advice from the Pros" would be a good place for formal critique, one thought that came to me is those wishing for totally anonymous feedback could pm their photo to a designated go-between who would then be the person to post the photo to that section. Back to the OP: David, what do you think? I volunteer to be the go-between!

blue-ultra Loc: New Hampshire

All of this in my opinion is very helpful to improve our work. Thank you to each of you that have responded all of these are outstanding. UHH has improved my work as I watch and read intently. All this is from someone who has been involved in photography one way or another for over 30 years.
Thank you!

Bob

DavidPine Loc: Fredericksburg, TX

Yes, I have benefited greatly.

(Download)

DavidPine Loc: Fredericksburg, TX

I think aspiring photographers should be able to take it on the chin. I have not seen many photos executed and rated highly that were not photojournalistic in nature. Those images were significant in time and space. I think planned images are much more difficult like the 1984 photographic portrait by journalist Steve McCurry "The Afgan Girl". Or the Ernest Hemingway portrait or the Winston Churchill portrait. We might include the Che photo. We need to know the truth about what we do so we can do better.

DavidPine Loc: Fredericksburg, TX

Captian C and Gene 51 are two of the most pragmatic members on UHH. Both have my highest respect.

Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

As burkphoto already pointed out, one person's truth is just one person's truth. What I do like (a lot!) about your suggestion for UHH is that if we are submitting to a pro, we can trust there is no ulterior motive.

What I mean by that is we will eliminate the rude bullies (there are not that many presently active on UHH, thankfully) whose primary goal is to show themselves as infinitely smarter than everyone else...they are the Great Truth Tellers.

"Taking it on the chin" suggests you approve of, and respond well to, harshly expressed critiques rather than thoughtful, patient or empathetic. Not everyone learns by being beaten down.

burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC

Nice image, David!

Something of this level is difficult to critique negatively. I'm sure someone — some picky judge — would have something to say about it that might "improve" it. But really, it would just make it a *different version.*

There is a point where you realize that a good photograph is a gestalt — more than "the sum of its parts". When you get to the point in *making* a photograph that you have that gestalt, it's okay to stop and let it stand on its own.

Can a given photo be improved? Sure. EVERY photo can be improved. But at the point where the impression, impact, emotion, story, or purpose is communicated transparently, I call it "done." If you notice the medium, rather than the message, it probably needs more work. But if the message, the payload, the reaction, is obvious? Move on...