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Asked to leave the premises
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Mar 20, 2018 11:39:04   #
Photo_Buff Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 
Thank you for your great response. I appreciate your taking the time to relate your experiences on this matter. I am just transitioning from amateur to professional status, so the legal side is something new. I'm used to taking photos as a tourist, so I am aware of additional entrance fees for a camera, and the extensive prohibition of tripods in public settings. Will now determine what needs to be readied before heading out on locarion.

E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
I'll preface my post by saying that some of the rules, prohibiting, limiting or controlling photography and certain kinds of equipment usage are justified, sensible, legal, necessary for any number of legitimate reasons and should be respected. Some of theses restrictions however, are baseless, unwarranted and defy common sense. Perhaps some of theses “permits” are simply “cash grabs” on the part of municipalities or private entities. Surely some are based on rightful grounds such as safety issues, copyright and intellectual property protections, preservation of artifacts, damage and liability indemnification, real security considerations and religious tenets and in place so that other visitors can peacefully and safely enjoy exhibits and attractions without obstruction. Sometimes the exact rules or their reasons for being are ambiguous and unnecessarily enforced by overzealous police officers, security guards or on-site volunteers.

In today's supposed tech-savvy environment with the proliferation of more cameras, smart-phone cameras digital photography in general, it is surprising how little some otherwise intelligent folks understand about photography and there is lots of mythology out there. I found out that the photography of a cretin view of a military building in my city, which is National Capitol of Canada, is prohibited because it was thought that top secret documents could be photographed from the exterior of the building- through a brick wall with no windows! A museum archivist that calls me in regularity to photograph priceless paintings, told me that there is no data to show that the cumulative effect of the level of ultraviolet radiation produced by the average speedlight cloud cause any appreciable damage or fading to paints or pigments in artworks. The restrictions on flash go back to the day of possibly exploding flash bulbs of the 1930s and 40s. Museum photographers routinely use high powered electronic to catalog there collection and produce prints and reproduction for the public consumption and publication in books and advertisements. Can the average security person differentiate an amateur from a professional strictly by the “look” of their gear? Makes little sense!


Unfortunately, some of theses rules were enacted because of the the actions of both amateur and professional photographers who somehow believe that their cameras and gear come with a license to go anywhere they wish and do anything the want and even exhibit belligerent behavior when approach by security or management officials. I have seen some of theses folks cause damage, become nuisances and getting themselves ejected. Sometimes, the authorities or decision makers in theses venues and sites, to preclude all of theses problems, just decide to paint all photographers with the same brush and ban all photography.

So... be that all as it may- I am a professional photographer, NOT a lawyer, a museum archivist, a security expert, a policeman or an activist for the interest of every photographer on Earth. I am not an investigative photojournalist in a hostile land! I am called upon to work at all kinds of public, private, government and industrial places. My strict policy is simply to secure permission, permits, clearance and whatever else is necessary to simply walk in, do the work, get my job done in a smooth, enjoyable and unencumbered fashion. I don't want to waste time and energy on any kind of argument, altercation or unexpected limitation on what I can do. I don't want to haul around heavy gear only to find out that I can not set it up. If there are reasonable restrictions, I need to know in advance and prepare accordingly. If I don't have the pass or the paperwork well in advance, I don't accept the assignment- I don't go there! If there are paid permits, the clients need to pay or reimburse me. I have been granted access to some venues on days when they are ordinarily closed to the public or at off hours so I could work without interference and not pose any safety issues or cause inconvenience to

That's my professional side! As a private citizen, tourist regular guy with a camera, I don't want to waste my rare spare time, my vacation time or money on places that restrict photography- I wanna take picture there! . I certainly do not want to inconvenience other folks who are trying to enjoy their time or clash with the security folks. So again, I inquire ahead of time and find out what, if any, restrictions are in place, what the costs of admission and permits entail and decide in advance if theses are worth the expense. Once I am there, I mind my own business, keep a low profile, abide by the rules and act nice!

Nowadays, it is unwise to assume anything or any rights, especially if you are traveling in unfamiliar places or foreign countries. Even certain municipalities, towns, and villages may have their own bylaws that can differ from other local, state, provincial and federal norms. On private property and premises, church and religious sites, indigenous lands and reservations, and on or near certain secured governmental or military properties, you must abide by all restrictions- theses are not necessarily “public” places!

Strictly on a personal and public relations note, many folks would be surprised on how much help, extension of courtesy, cooperation and welcoming attitudes they can garner by simply taking the time to ask permission and acting in a straightforward friendly and courteous manner.
I'll preface my post by saying that some of the ru... (show quote)

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Mar 20, 2018 13:38:49   #
Photo_Buff Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 
I'm not disputing their rules, only whom they choose to eject. In the time I was there there were dozens of people taking pictures,
many with tripods. The tone of your comments? Are you a Stanford alumni? PTSD?

Architect1776 wrote:
Duh!!!!!!
It is still private property if you would pay attention and you can be asked to leave, as I stated, any time for any reason or no reason.
Many private things are open to the public like Burger King. They can ask you to leave any time they wish.
It is called private property.

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Mar 20, 2018 14:20:03   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
Stories about photographers, amateur and professional, being restricted, banned or ejected from various venues, sites and locations frequently appear on this and other forums. The various rules, restrictions and policies are discussed, argued for and against, criticized and sometimes validated.

The reality is, if you are an avid amateur photographer or a professional and work in places other than you own home or studio, you will eventually encounter some of theses issues. As I have alluded to in my other post in this thread, the best avoidance of theses embarrassing, inconvenient, frustrating and unpleasant situations is careful planning, requesting and securing all required permission, permits and clearances and the application of decorum, commonsense, courtesy and professionalism in all relations with the public, private entities and of course, when you are actually working on any site. Follow the rules!

I do find it rather frustrating when theses conversation become “anti-tripod” rants, arguments about equipment usages and complaints about cell phone cameras. All theses things are not safety hazards and annoyances in and of themselves. The problems are caused by the users when folks do not exercise good manners and commonsense.

There are certain times when the use of a solid tripod and/or lighting equipment is required to obtain the best photograph results and no elevated ISO setting, fast lens or stabilization device is gonna do the job in the same way. This does not mean that a photographer should set up a tripod, light stands or place electrical cords in a high trafficked public place where these will present safety hazards or annoyances to others. This is where the commonsense, planning and savvy is lacking and leads to problematic situations, more and more restrictions and even serious legal issues and lawsuits.

One venue manager told me that he bans tripods because some photographers did not bother to retract the spikes on their tripod legs, dragged their gear across the hardwood floors and caused irreparable gouges and scratches in the surface- how lazy and nonsensical is that? You can't blame the managers and proprietors.

What I find even more frustrating and exacerbating is that some folks gleefully post stories where they clashed with security people, purposely broke the rules, sneak in shots when the guards ain't looking (etc.) and pull off all kids of childish shenanigans. This does not help the situation on a global basis and certainly makes it more difficult for the next guy or gal who comes along with a camera and innocently and earnestly seeks access or permission.

What I find extremely saddening is that even the most well meaning ethical and courteous photographers have to “pay” or suffer public ill-repute for the wrongdoing and criminal and despicable activities of the minority. Crimes like child-pornography, criminal voyeurism and invasion of privacy have turned the “camera” into a illicit device in the minds of many. Nowadays, no conscientious photographer would enter a schoolyard or a playground with a camera in hand. If an artist were to set up an easel and begin working on a canvas with paints and brushes at theses same locations, would he or she be perceived in the same way? Think about that.

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Mar 20, 2018 14:31:04   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
There are certain times when the use of a solid tripod and/or lighting equipment is required to obtain the best photograph results and no elevated ISO setting, fast lens or stabilization device is gonna do the job in the same way.

This is less and less true every day.

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Mar 20, 2018 17:38:24   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
rehess wrote:
This is less and less true every day.

Perhaps this is true for casual photography but in my work in commercial photography, hand holding the camera in certain kinds of scenarios is difficult or impossible:

Examples: Long exposure to record light shows, fireworks, lightening, and painting with light to illuminate vast interiors. Making precise panoramas. Placing the camera in a certain position but having to trigger it from an off-camera location. Using a view camera or a tilt and shift lens. Using a monstrous telephoto lens- 1200mm etc. Working in low light where low ISO setting are necessary for noise avoidance, needing smaller apertures for depth of field and therefore having to use extended exposure times. There are times when the old three-legged monster needs ro rear it ugly pan head.

I really did not want to turn this thread into a tripod or flash usage issue. Some of the issues that we are discussions heave more to do with photographers who use tripods and other heavy equipment in inappropriate circumstances thereby causing safety hazards and inconvenience to others.

Even the flash issues are debatable as to their UV content causing fading of the pigments in paintings. Nevertheless, I still obey the rules in museums. When I am called in to photograph some of theses paintings and artifacts, I am allowed to use electronic flash. The curators and archivists feel that high wattage tungsten lights with their accompanying heat pose more of a danger. Lately I am experimenting with LED lights but to date, they are not powerful enough to work with the polarizing filters that are used BOTH over the lights and the camera.

It is said that flash usage at high school basketball games is being prohibited but NBA and college games, photographed by Sports Illustrated photographers, are oftentimes done with 1200 to 2400 watt-second flash units strategically placed around the court. When I worked news in Montreal, there were high powered electronic flash units build into rafters over the ice that we were allowed to plug into.

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Mar 20, 2018 22:21:56   #
Diamond41 Loc: St. Louis, MO
 
I have been asked twice to not shoot pictures, this was long ago. First was an accident that had occurred trapping the driver of a fork lift. This involved lawyers as I had to turn over negatives or face a lawsuit. I was in a very public area, but the scene was a loading dock area. I knew the driver and he was badly injured by the accident. Rescue squad took over an hour to remove him.

The second was by a RR officer. A bad accident had occurred and I wanted pictures of investigators working the scene. the accident was faulted to the car driver as he apparently tried to out run a train engine. Very sad case. I got my pictures by staying back away from everyone.

As for the MOTrails, Katy trail is a trail in the process, many segments are finished and used heavily. The Rock Island trail will be a great addition to the trail system.

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Mar 21, 2018 15:50:18   #
barrytex
 
Was asked to not use a tripod when photographing inside a building in Dallas. Was told the tripod could damage the floor. I doubt it, but complied.

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Mar 22, 2018 19:14:37   #
John In Austin
 
Once I was asked to leave but I doubt it was because of my camera...it was because I wasn't wearing pants.

brahahahahahaahhaah

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Mar 23, 2018 23:26:03   #
anotherview Loc: California
 
Banning the use of cellular telephones aboard a passenger airplane probably goes to erring on the side of caution -- here, until proved safe, not assumed safe, considering the lives at stake.
JohnFrim wrote:
No argument there. It is just annoying when rules are based on false arguments... like having cell phones on in an airplane will interfere with the plane's navigation systems. Right. The plane is approaching the airport of a large metropolitan area where there are millions of cell phones in active use, and there are cell towers beaming out cell phone signals many orders of magnitude more powerful than what a cell phone emits... but my phone will bring down the plane. Utter nonsense. I believe people would more readily comply with rules if they were based on reasonable arguments.
No argument there. It is just annoying when rules ... (show quote)

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