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I'm Puzzled As To Why 18% Gray For Metering?
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Feb 21, 2018 16:00:29   #
Feiertag Loc: British Columbia, Canada
 
I know that Kodak came up with this idea/method but why not 0%? You shoot white subjects, you have to keep the gray factor in mind. Why not design a camera that gives you the option, that meters at 0%, not 18% gray?

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Feb 21, 2018 16:12:57   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
Feiertag wrote:
I know that Kodak came up with this idea/method but why not 0%? You shoot white subjects, you have to keep the gray factor in mind. Why not design a camera that gives you the option, that meters at 0%, not 18% gray?


https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=Fd-NWunlNeq0ggexyq7YDA&q=history+of+18%25+gray+card&oq=history+of+18%25+gray+card&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i22i29i30k1l10.608.7962.0.9530.25.24.0.0.0.0.140.2003.20j4.24.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.24.2001.0..0j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i20i264k1j0i131i20i264k1.0.FLvvCamT5wE

Knock yourself out reading all the answers. Lots of debate out there. 12%? 18%? Meh... I'll leave the whys to the scientists.

What the hell. All I know is, if you set a camera on Natural or Neutral Picture Style, and make an auto exposure of nothing but a gray card, then translate that readout of ISO, f/stop, and shutter speed into actual FULL manual camera settings, THEN do a white balance off the same gray card, you will get VERY accurate color rendition of your subject. It might not be perfect, and it might not be what you want in a raw file, but it is a great starting point for straight-out-of-camera JPEGs recorded under controlled lighting conditions.

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Feb 21, 2018 16:27:29   #
14kphotog Loc: Marietta, Ohio
 
burkphoto wrote:
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=Fd-NWunlNeq0ggexyq7YDA&q=history+of+18%25+gray+card&oq=history+of+18%25+gray+card&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i22i29i30k1l10.608.7962.0.9530.25.24.0.0.0.0.140.2003.20j4.24.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.24.2001.0..0j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i20i264k1j0i131i20i264k1.0.FLvvCamT5wE

Knock yourself out reading all the answers. Lots of debate out there. 12%? 18%? Meh... I'll leave the whys to the scientists.

What the hell. All I know is, if you set a camera on Natural or Neutral Picture Style, and make an auto exposure of nothing but a gray card, then translate that readout of ISO, f/stop, and shutter speed into actual FULL manual camera settings, THEN do a white balance off the same gray card, you will get VERY accurate color rendition of your subject. It might not be perfect, and it might not be what you want in a raw file, but it is a great starting point for straight-out-of-camera JPEGs recorded under controlled lighting conditions.
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=Fd-... (show quote)


Sounds like a straight on answer( burkphoto.)

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Feb 21, 2018 16:28:04   #
r.grossner Loc: Rockford IL & Sarasota FL
 
I have used the palm of my hand in a pinch.

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Feb 21, 2018 17:06:31   #
Feiertag Loc: British Columbia, Canada
 
burkphoto wrote:
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=Fd-NWunlNeq0ggexyq7YDA&q=history+of+18%25+gray+card&oq=history+of+18%25+gray+card&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i22i29i30k1l10.608.7962.0.9530.25.24.0.0.0.0.140.2003.20j4.24.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.24.2001.0..0j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i20i264k1j0i131i20i264k1.0.FLvvCamT5wE

Knock yourself out reading all the answers. Lots of debate out there. 12%? 18%? Meh... I'll leave the whys to the scientists.

What the hell. All I know is, if you set a camera on Natural or Neutral Picture Style, and make an auto exposure of nothing but a gray card, then translate that readout of ISO, f/stop, and shutter speed into actual FULL manual camera settings, THEN do a white balance off the same gray card, you will get VERY accurate color rendition of your subject. It might not be perfect, and it might not be what you want in a raw file, but it is a great starting point for straight-out-of-camera JPEGs recorded under controlled lighting conditions.
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=Fd-... (show quote)


Thank you for the post. It appears that it was setup for B&W shots. When I shoot white objects in the colour format I want whites to be white, not gray. Maybe there needs to be a change? It fails in the colour format, for me. I always have to compensate for the 18% factor. I still don't get it!

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Feb 21, 2018 17:19:11   #
HarryBinNC Loc: Blue Ridge Mtns, No.Carolina, USA
 
Feiertag wrote:
I know that Kodak came up with this idea/method but why not 0%? You shoot white subjects, you have to keep the gray factor in mind. Why not design a camera that gives you the option, that meters at 0%, not 18% gray?


The 18% grey card was a valuable tool back in the film era, and can still be useful with digital. Auto exposure systems in cameras (and light meters) are easily fooled when you are shooting something that doesn't have a mixture of brightness values that conform to the "average" scene that the meters are calibrated for. The classic examples are shooting a polar bear on the snowfield on a sunny day or the black cat in a coal bin (or vice-versa). Those are the extremes, but there are also a lot of more complex scenes that will trick the metering system and/or the photographer. When you recognize one of those tricky situations or you don't have time to experiment , you can meter on the gray card, which guarantees your exposure will be at least in the ballpark. Of course, with digital, you can chimp and adjust until you get it right - if the subject waits around for that. Your 0% (or 100%) meter wouldn't give you what you need - the actual luminance value of the light falling on the subject. That is the beauty of the gray card - it takes the subject's variablility out of the equation and tells you how much light there really is.

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Feb 21, 2018 17:52:28   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
Feiertag wrote:
Thank you for the post. It appears that it was setup for B&W shots. When I shoot white objects in the colour format I want whites to be white, not gray. Maybe there needs to be a change? It fails in the colour format, for me. I always have to compensate for the 18% factor. I still don't get it!


It is all about displaying textured whites (threads in a white shirt, for example) in photo prints. Photo paper (conventional Kodak silver-halide wet process technology) only reflects about 90% of the light falling on it. The top and bottom 5% of tones are not really visible to most people. So... the idea is to force everything into a value range of about 12 to 242 (and for some other papers, around 18 to 236)! That means 1/3 stop underexposure of a JPEG to preserve highlights, and Neutral or Natural Picture Style to pull in the shadows.

If you photograph a gray card, the correct reading for middle gray is around 124, 124, 124 RGB in an sRGB JPEG, give or take a few points. Adjusting exposure with a typical dSLR set as I described earlier will give you clean, textured whites, visible on photo paper. It will give you detail in the shadows that would plug up if you printed the full range. And there is still a little bit of overhead in the highlights that you can "dial out" in post production.

Now, if you're only viewing images on a computer monitor, that is an entirely different story! You may want an additional 1/3 stop of exposure, and the Standard Picture Style instead of Neutral/Natural. Good monitors, properly calibrated and profiled, can display tones from 0-255. Exposure compensation dials are your friends... HOWEVER, ETTR leaves little or no latitude for highlight recovery from a JPEG.

If you are recording raw images, no problem... Do what you would do for a SOOC JPEG, then open up a stop, or even a little more (EBTR). Back in the office or home, adjust blacks, whites, shadows, highlights, and exposure in post-production. Ignore the overexposed mess in the preview JPEG...

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Feb 21, 2018 18:02:22   #
blackest Loc: Ireland
 
Feiertag wrote:
Thank you for the post. It appears that it was setup for B&W shots. When I shoot white objects in the colour format I want whites to be white, not gray. Maybe there needs to be a change? It fails in the colour format, for me. I always have to compensate for the 18% factor. I still don't get it!


The world is mostly mid gray on average , but sometimes its not.

For whiter whites you can do 2 things.

Incident light reading should place tones correctly
Or meter off something mid gray or the back of your hand at a pinch.

You probably have an exposure lock button use it hold the reading you got from the gray card or back of your hand and shoot your white subject it should be white.

Your white is gray only because the camera assumes we are in a gray world.

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Feb 21, 2018 18:13:02   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
Feiertag wrote:
I know that Kodak came up with this idea/method but why not 0%? You shoot white subjects, you have to keep the gray factor in mind. Why not design a camera that gives you the option, that meters at 0%, not 18% gray?


With all the photography you do, very nicely, you never thought to research this?

--

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Feb 21, 2018 18:32:38   #
HOT Texas Loc: From the Heart of Texas
 
White reflects light, That can cause getting the balance wrong, also if you shoot at a flat surface it can reflect different lighting at different angles, adding 18% gray helps this problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOYtgWqn-7U

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Feb 21, 2018 18:45:11   #
rgrenaderphoto Loc: Hollywood, CA
 
Feiertag wrote:
Thank you for the post. It appears that it was setup for B&W shots. When I shoot white objects in the colour format I want whites to be white, not gray. Maybe there needs to be a change? It fails in the colour format, for me. I always have to compensate for the 18% factor. I still don't get it!


Grey is a neutral color, white is not.

Watch JP Morgan's video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho_C2ZvOzJk&t=220s

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Feb 21, 2018 18:50:51   #
Feiertag Loc: British Columbia, Canada
 
Bill_de wrote:
With all the photography you do, very nicely, you never thought to research this?

--

Thank you for your comment, Bill. I knew the 18% factor and compensat for it. I am just curious as to why this has to be the case?

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Feb 21, 2018 18:57:22   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
Feiertag wrote:
Thank you for your comment, Bill. I knew the 18% factor and compensat for it. I am just curious as to why this has to be the case?


I figured that with the quality of your pictures you probably know more than many of us here.

---

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Feb 21, 2018 19:02:57   #
blackest Loc: Ireland
 
Feiertag wrote:
Thank you for your comment, Bill. I knew the 18% factor and compensat for it. I am just curious as to why this has to be the case?


This page is useful
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_gray

It also has a handy patch to adjust your monitor , my screen was way too bright.

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Feb 21, 2018 19:03:35   #
Feiertag Loc: British Columbia, Canada
 
Bill_de wrote:
I figured that with the quality of your pictures you probably know more than many of us here.

---


Thank you for the compliment, Bill. I learn something, every time I push the shutter. When I screw up, I check as to why? I then try not to repeat the blaring error. Cheers!

Harold

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