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Navy Shutting Down Combat Camera Groups
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Feb 15, 2018 19:16:48   #
pendennis
 
The DoD tends to have, in a lot of instances, the "it wasn't invented here" syndrome. This was most egregiously demonstrated when Robert McNamara became Secretary of Defense. Prior to his arrival, the DoD designed their combat arms within the DoD, mainly at the Springfield Arsenal in Massachusetts. The Arsenal had been in "business" since the late 1700's, and had designed every standard infantry musket, up through the M14. The M1 Garand was a superb rifle, but was handicapped, because Douglas MacArthur insisted on the rifle being chambered in .30-06, instead of the recommended .276 Petersen round. It resulted in the Garand being limited to 8 rounds in the en bloc clip, instead of 10. Ask any infantryman if he wants two more rounds in the clip. By the end of WWII, the M1 was obsolete, being surpassed by German and Russian "assault weapons". The M14 replacement was designed for long range engagements (500+ meters), when warfare was turning into close-in actions of less than 250 meters.

McNamara decided that the Arsenal system was no good, and opted to close the Springfield Arsenal. Replacing the M14 would be sent out for design and purchase. The Air Force had been testing the AR15, built by Armalite Industries, later by Colt. It was decided to buy the AR15 (becoming the M16). However, as is typical, the DoD couldn't leave well enough alone. They opted to change the rifle powder to increase the rate of fire, causing inevitable jams and misfires, while ignoring real problems like corroded rifle chambers. There have been volumes written on the M16's problems, and eventual improvements.

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Feb 15, 2018 22:05:49   #
bobforman Loc: Anacortes, Washington State
 
Pendennis, I also recall the cheapening of the bolt to make the M16 less expensive. It wasn't until the bolt was made with chromium that many of the jamming problems were solved. (I'm not a chemist so I'm not sure of the components.) I was issued mine in 1968, which was one of the newer rifles, and it worked flawlessly. However, I did love the M14 I trained with. PS. You're right about the number of rounds....never enough.

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Feb 15, 2018 22:29:05   #
pendennis
 
bobforman wrote:
Pendennis, I also recall the cheapening of the bolt to make the M16 less expensive. It wasn't until the bolt was made with chromium that many of the jamming problems were solved. (I'm not a chemist so I'm not sure of the components.) I was issued mine in 1968, which was one of the newer rifles, and it worked flawlessly. However, I did love the M14 I trained with. PS. You're right about the number of rounds....never enough.


The main issue was with the chambers. Owing to the tropical conditions and the wet, damp weather, the chambers suffered from fairly quick corrosion. If a round was left in the chamber overnight, there was a good chance that it would jam, and the head of the case would often separate leaving the chamber jammed with a broken case. A bit later, the chambers were chrome lined, eliminating the problem. In fact, the early M16's were touted to never needing cleaning, and the ball powder that the DoD switched to, caused huge numbers of dirty chambers, barrels, etc. The early issues didn't even have cleaning kits (another brilliant idea).

When I was on active duty in the Navy in the Seabees, our issue rifle was the M14. I always liked it, since it reminded me a lot of the M1. I shot the M14 in reserve rifle competition until 1974, when we were forced to switch to the M16. I have an AR15, and it's a fine shooter, but it's far removed from the early version.

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Feb 15, 2018 22:37:13   #
10MPlayer Loc: California
 
PhotoPhred wrote:
The government will spend money to keep all those Chevy Suburbans idling all the time so our legislators don't get into a cold or hot car depending on the season. They don't pay for the gasoline either. I wonder what that is costing us, bring back the photographers, turn the SUV's off.


Not to mention that every one of them from the mayor on up gets a personal driver and/or a security detail. Wasted money!

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Feb 15, 2018 22:46:59   #
Merlin1300 Loc: New England, But Now & Forever SoTX
 
I flew in the back seat of RF-4c Phantoms in the late 80's - - Huge airplanes - nick-named "Double Ugly" (38th TRS)
It was rumored nothing fell out of the sky faster than an F-4 in full Afterburner :)
This particular aircraft was in the business of aerial photography, and had "SLAR" = Side Looking Airborne Radar for ground mapping, as well as photo pods.
Cost for an hour of flight time in the F4 is about $19,000. Them is some PRICEY Polaroids !!
An hour of Predator drone flight comes in at about $3,679. And a KH-11 spy satellite (Launched in 1976) is Zero (incremental cost anyway)
Technology marches on - - and if we can get the photos without risking pilots lives, and less expensive to boot - - well - - all the better

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Feb 16, 2018 00:47:15   #
splatbass Loc: Honolulu
 
Rongnongno wrote:
And that is a justification for out of control expenses???

How about costal ships that can 'only' be manned by NCO and officers? What kind of crap is that?

A hammer is a hammer. It is different from a toilet seat used in high altitude but then again, commercial aircraft have those for a fraction of the price. Higher up? Nappies. I seem to recall a female O6 using them to drive long distance in order to kill her rival... Cost of the nappies? I have no idea but seeing how everything else is inflated I would not be surprised if a single one cost over $100.00.

The DOD writes its own ticket w/o supervision. Remember the Bradley vehicle?

Procuration should be out of the DOD / politician hands.

THAT is still a political comment I will not apologize for.
And that is a justification for out of control exp... (show quote)


He is right. The specs are strict (usually for a good reason you might not understand, but that doesn't mean it isn't a good reason), and the numbers of units are low. They aren't selling millions of cheap hammers or toilet seats at Home Depot. They order a small number, the contractors have to design them to specs, then test them, which is expensive and that expense is spread between hundreds of units instead of millions.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. You should try to listen to people with experience. They are asking for things that aren't available commercially (in the size, configuration or durability that is required in tough situations), and having them built in small numbers. We aren't talking about the cheap junk you buy at Walmart, but custom pieces made from the highest quality materials.

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Feb 19, 2018 11:32:32   #
planepics Loc: St. Louis burbs, but originally Chicago burbs
 
PhotoPhred wrote:
That is a shame, I remember watching "Victory at Sea" with my dad when I was a little kid. Great stuff. He was a WWII vet mostly in the North Atlantic and the Med.


I have that DVD set, but I haven't watched it yet. I think I got it in the $5 bin at Walmart. Even though I'm more-or-less a pacifist I love historical war footage, biographies and Hollywood movies about the various eras. I also got the series "Victory By Air."

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Feb 19, 2018 11:39:32   #
RWR Loc: La Mesa, CA
 
Times change. Sailors don’t even carry pikes anymore.

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Feb 19, 2018 20:40:54   #
PhotoPhred Loc: Cheyney, Pa
 
planepics wrote:
I have that DVD set, but I haven't watched it yet. I think I got it in the $5 bin at Walmart. Even though I'm more-or-less a pacifist I love historical war footage, biographies and Hollywood movies about the various eras. I also got the series "Victory By Air."


The combat footage is amazing, but also the musical score was written by Richard Rodgers of Rodgers and Hammerstein fame. Fantastic.

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