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Loss of IQ Using Full Frame Lens on a Crop Sensor?
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Dec 14, 2017 09:40:28   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
selmslie wrote:
You don't know the difference between lens resolution, sensor/film resolution and combined system resolution.

All you need to know is that either a lens or the sensor or both can limit the resolution of a system. You should also know that the combined system will be less than either of the two components taken separately.

In other words, no matter how good the lens is, it will never deliver more resolution than the sensor. Likewise, no matter how good the sensor is, it will never deliver more resolution than the lens. The formula I presented is an approximation of that relationship.

What I demonstrated is an approximate way to isolate the two resolutions. You can confirm this by picking any* lens on the DxOMark display and selecting different cameras in the "mounted on" drop-down.

* Any lens except where the Perceptual Megapixel is not too close to the nominal sensor megapixels, which it is for all but a handful of the FX mount type lenses.
You don't know the difference between lens resolut... (show quote)

You are avoiding the topic with random non sequiturs. Perceptual Megapixels is a concept and is not the same as nor ever interchangeable with megapixels.

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Dec 14, 2017 09:56:02   #
chrisg-optical Loc: New York, NY
 
selmslie wrote:
They actually do. You just need to understand what they are telling you.

The Perceptual Megapixel score combines the lens resolution with the sensor resolution in approximately the following way:

(1/PM) = (1/LM) + (1/SM) where: PM=Perceptual Megapixel, LM=lens megapixel and SM=sensor MP

For example, a 24MP lens on a 24MP sensor would end up with a 12MP Perceptual Megapixel score because (1/12) = (1/24) + (1/24)

But a "perfect" lens (extremely high LP) the 1/LM approaches 0 and PM approaches SM.

To calculate the lens's MP you can rearrange the terms:

(1/LM) = (1/PM) - (1/SM}

This calculation is only approximate. It cannot account for a difference in the actual resolution of the sensor itself which is affected by the Bayer array and whether there is an AA filter or other factors. And it assumes that you are comparing sensors of the same format (size).

But the biggest fallacy is in assuming that a 36 MP camera with a Bayer array automatically delivers 36 MP. But there are only 18 MP of green sensors and 9 MP each or red and blue sensors. The Bayer array actually degrades the resolution by about half and it has to be recreated by the software. A 24 MP monochrome sensor actually starts with 24 MP that have not been degraded by a Bayer array.

However the formulas explain why a non-perfect lens will always degrade the performance of the sensor.

But getting back to the OP's original question, just about everyone is correct that by using only the better center portion of the image circle will result in a higher resolution. You can confirm this with a superficial understanding of MTF curves. The thing that throws a monkey wrench into the works is the size of the pixels themselves and the lower diffraction limits of a crop sensor compared to a full frame sensor.
They actually do. You just need to understand wha... (show quote)


Very accurate assessment - it's the total image path from subject to viewers eyes that will determine the ultimate IQ, including how the image is being viewed. Yes, today's high MP cameras require "high MP" quality lenses for best results, whether FF or APSC.

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Dec 14, 2017 10:24:49   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
chrisg-optical wrote:
Very accurate assessment - it's the total image path from subject to viewers eyes that will determine the ultimate IQ, including how the image is being viewed. Yes, today's high MP cameras require "high MP" quality lenses for best results, whether FF or APSC.

The point is that DXO's Perceptual Megapixels measurement does not provide what people think it should. Look instead at MTF charts for valid answers.

The MTF chart shows how well a lens will do on either a cropped sensor or a full frame sensor. The DXO measurement does not do that.

When people see a lower Perceptual Megapixel value for the same lens on a cropped sensor compared to that lens on a full frame sensor they are incorrectly assuming poorer performance of that lens on the cropped sensor. In fact the MTF charts will virtually always show a higher performance on the smaller sensor.

That is what this thread is about, not the massive obfuscation that has been posted.

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Dec 14, 2017 11:21:00   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Apaflo wrote:
You are avoiding the topic with random non sequiturs. Perceptual Megapixels is a concept and is not the same as nor ever interchangeable with megapixels.

Perceptual Megapixels (PM) is actually exactly that - the perceived megapixels of the combined lens and camera, in other words, the system megapixels. That's why they offer you the measurement for a lens when "mounted on" different bodies.

To compare lenses, DxOMark initially presents them when mounted on the D800E - to eliminate a variable that would otherwise confuse the matter. They simply have not tested enough of them on the D850.

Getting back to the original question, an FX lens does not lose IQ when mounted on a DX body. Most of us understand that and why. The MP of the sensor is only one factor limiting the PM.

A Carl Zeiss Distagon T* Otus 1.4/55 ZF.2 Nikon mounted on a 24 MP D610 produces 23 PM. On a 20.9 MP D500 the result is 19 PM*. On the 36.6 MP D800E the result is 33 PM. PM scores are rounded to the nearest whole integer.

The PM score for the Sigma 85mm F1.4 DG HSM A on a D800E is 36. You can't really tell how well it will do on a 45.75 MP D850 until they test it.

I am not going to get into a pissing match with you over the a concept that appears to be over your head.

* I could not find a lens that scored higher than 19 PM on a D500 so it apparently does not live up to the advertised MP.

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Dec 14, 2017 13:35:44   #
Bunkershot Loc: Central Florida
 
mwsilvers wrote:
Your lenses will work just fine on a crop body. I've got a crop sensor Canon 7D Mark II and almost all my lenses are full frame. Because a full frame lens' image circle is larger than a crop sensor, the outer edges of those lenses will not be used. Since in many lenses, there's more distortion and less sharpness towards the edges, you may find you actually get better results using those lenses on a crop camera. Any limitations you run into will be a result of the SL2's lack of features and controls.
Your lenses will work just fine on a crop body. I'... (show quote)

I shoot mostly with full frame lenses on my d7100 and concur that the quality of the FF lenses is far superior to the DX lenses...

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Dec 17, 2017 08:06:51   #
joer Loc: Colorado/Illinois
 
Gene51 wrote:
You've watched the Tony Northrup video on this topic, I suspect. It should be dismissed as hogwash. Full frame lenses will provide equal and often better corner to corner performance than APS-C lenses on an APS-C camera.


It can be true but it depends on the individual lens design. The problem comes in with the viewing end of the system. At this point in time crop sensors have a huge disadvantage because they need to be magnified when viewed. The larger the sensor or film the better image quality due to less viewing magnification. Of course there are other factors involved that affect the results.

I try to avoid saying "All things being equal" because it seldom is in the real world.

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Dec 17, 2017 09:18:12   #
chrisg-optical Loc: New York, NY
 
joer wrote:
It can be true but it depends on the individual lens design. The problem comes in with the viewing end of the system. At this point in time crop sensors have a huge disadvantage because they need to be magnified when viewed. The larger the sensor or film the better image quality due to less viewing magnification. Of course there are other factors involved that affect the results.

I try to avoid saying "All things being equal" because it seldom is in the real world.


No the IQ is better because the photosites on the FF sensor are larger given the same # MP's...nothing to do with magnification. For example the D750 and D7200 will produce 24MP images 6000x4000, but the D750 will have slightly better DR and better noise handling at higher ISO....think bigger eyeballs on the D750 sensor - more surface area - 2.3x - to spread out the 24MP eyeballs - so they are larger and capture more light-signal. Regarding magnification, the opposite is true...if I am doing bird photography a 400mm lens (or zoom setting) on APSC will give me same apparent magnification as a 600mm on a D750 - you need a longer lens without cropping for FF to fill the frame similarly. But, if you have both cameras, a lens like a Tamron 150-600 can be used on both, with the APSC giving you extra reach when you need it w/o needing a TC (which degrades IQ a bit no matter how well made.) Generally speaking the more of the sensor area is used the better, in either case, but sometimes the need to crop arises.

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Dec 17, 2017 10:01:44   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
joer wrote:
It can be true but it depends on the individual lens design. The problem comes in with the viewing end of the system. At this point in time crop sensors have a huge disadvantage because they need to be magnified when viewed. The larger the sensor or film the better image quality due to less viewing magnification. Of course there are other factors involved that affect the results.

I try to avoid saying "All things being equal" because it seldom is in the real world.

Take a look at the first answer under What do resolution figures mean in lens specifications? for a very thorough explanation.

A lens that places an upper limit on system resolution for full frame will do so even sooner when used on a crop sensor. But it will still be much better than a lens originally designed for that crop sensor.

The reason is that a really good lens might provide 100 lp/mm on a full frame sensor (200 lines/mm or 4800 lines over 24mm) but it will also provide only 100 lp/mm on a crrop sensor (3200 lines).

That's the main reason why a Sigma 50 f/1.4 that produces 35 perceptual MP on a D800E and 23 on a D610 will only provide only 16 on a D7100 (see the DxOMark results).

Pick any of the full frame lenses an look at the DxOMark sharpness scores for a D800E and any crop sensor body and you will see that this is consistent.

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Dec 17, 2017 10:06:08   #
BebuLamar
 
selmslie wrote:
Take a look at the first answer under What do resolution figures mean in lens specifications? for a very thorough explanation.

A lens that places an upper limit on system resolution for full frame will do so even sooner when used on a crop sensor. But it will still be much better than a lens originally designed for that crop sensor.

The reason is that a really good lens might provide 100 lp/mm on a full frame sensor (200 lines/mm or 4800 lines over 24mm) but it will also provide only 100 lp/mm on a crrop sensor (3200 lines).

That's the main reason why a Sigma 50 f/1.4 that produces 35 perceptual MP on a D800E and 23 on a D610 will only provide only 16 on a D7100 (see the DxOMark results).

Pick any of the full frame lenses an look at the DxOMark sharpness scores for a D800E and any crop sensor body and you will see that this is consistent.
Take a look at the first answer under url=https:/... (show quote)


Yeah people keep saying that when using FF lens on a crop sensor camera you're using the sweet spot but the sweet spot isn't sweet enough because smaller sensor need higher resolution lens.

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Dec 17, 2017 10:12:14   #
joer Loc: Colorado/Illinois
 
chrisg-optical wrote:
No the IQ is better because the photosites on the FF sensor are larger given the same # MP's...nothing to do with magnification.


Photosites are larger on the D500 than the D850 so your argument doesn't hold true in all cases. Don't compare different lenses.

If you cropped or used DX with the D850 and used the same lens on the D500 the results would be nearly identical, the difference being the sensors, not sensor size.

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Dec 17, 2017 10:31:28   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
BebuLamar wrote:
Yeah people keep saying that when using FF lens on a crop sensor camera you're using the sweet spot but the sweet spot isn't sweet enough because smaller sensor need higher resolution lens.

You would need it but you are not going to get it. Nobody is going to make one because there is no financial incentive to do so.

The sharpest DX lens on a D500 (Nikon AF-S DX Micro NIKKOR 40mm f/2.8G, $280) provides only 14 perceptual megapixels. All other DX lenses produce 10 MP or less.

You can get up to 19 MP with a full frame lens.

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Dec 17, 2017 11:54:19   #
joer Loc: Colorado/Illinois
 
selmslie wrote:
You would need it but you are not going to get it. Nobody is going to make one because there is no financial incentive to do so.

The sharpest DX lens on a D500 (Nikon AF-S DX Micro NIKKOR 40mm f/2.8G, $280) provides only 14 perceptual megapixels. All other DX lenses produce 10 MP or less.

You can get up to 19 MP with a full frame lens.


DXO has not tested all the available DX lenses so we don't really know. There are so many DX cameras out there at least some manufactures will pay attention. I'll post some DX lens images in the photo gallery...look for them if interested.

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Dec 17, 2017 12:23:06   #
chrisg-optical Loc: New York, NY
 
joer wrote:
Photosites are larger on the D500 than the D850 so your argument doesn't hold true in all cases. Don't compare different lenses.

If you cropped or used DX with the D850 and used the same lens on the D500 the results would be nearly identical, the difference being the sensors, not sensor size.


Larger photosites do gather more light-signal but what the image processor does with that could be another story. That is why the D850 is not being touted as a low light performer - the pixel size is approaching that of an APSC camera so yes my argument does hold. Keep in mind Nikon used a different chip design to help get around the photosite size limitation but eventually the twain will meet for IQ if they keep bumping up the MP - next stop medium format!

If you were to scale up the D500 to FF
D500 20.9 MP x 2.3 = 48 MP, D850 45.7 MP (a FF sensor has approx. 2.3 x the surface area of APSC)

This is why they keep the single digit Nikons to conservative MP levels - allows for larger photosites = low light, fast performance.

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Dec 17, 2017 12:55:14   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
chrisg-optical wrote:
Larger photosites do gather more light-signal but what the image processor does with that could be another story. That is why the D850 is not being touted as a low light performer - the pixel size is approaching that of an APSC camera so yes my argument does hold. Keep in mind Nikon used a different chip design to help get around the photosite size limitation but eventually the twain will meet for IQ if they keep bumping up the MP - next stop medium format!

If you were to scale up the D500 to FF
D500 20.9 MP x 2.3 = 48 MP, D850 45.7 MP (a FF sensor has approx. 2.3 x the surface area of APSC)

This is why they keep the single digit Nikons to conservative MP levels - allows for larger photosites = low light, fast performance.
Larger photosites do gather more light-signal but ... (show quote)

The scale factor is 1.5*1.5=2.25 so 20.9 would come closer to 47 MP. But that's not really the point.

As I explained earlier, the resolution of the system will be lower than the lesser of the sensor resolution or the lens resolution based on the approximation, "(1/PM) = (1/LM) + (1/SM) where: PM=Perceptual Megapixel, LM=lens megapixel and SM=sensor MP"

The limiting issue with lenses is that, if a lens can provide a resolution of R on a full frame sensor then it will provide only a resolution of R/2.25 for a DX crop if you express it as MP. That means that if a lens could actually provide a resolution of 72 MP for FX, it would only give you 32 MP with DX.

If you do the MP math for a D500 you get 1/20.9+1/32=1/12.6 or less than 13 MP. But for a D800E you get 1/36+1/72=1/24 or 24 MP

If you express lens resolution in lp/mm or lines/mm the values would be constant. You would then multiply the lp/mm or lines/mm x the sensor dimension in mm to get the total number of line pairs or lines.

Two things to keep in mind:
1. You don't really need more than about 12 MP in most cases. For example, high resolution is wasted on out-of-focus areas in an image. It is only meaningful if you want corner-to-corner sharpness like for a landscape.
2. The DxOMark perceptual megapixel figures are only intended to be used for lens comparisons, not as a statement of the actual resolution.

For more about what is involved, see the link I provided earlier What do resolution figures mean in lens specifications?

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