Perspective
Oct 25, 2017 19:21:43 #
I have been reading UHH now for a while and I don’t recall seeing any posts on perspective. Perspective is quite often not an issue, but it is sometime the critical issue. As an extreme example (to really show the point) I recall a picture in one of the photo magazines back in the 60’s of a bikini clad woman silhouetted in the sun. Her height fit perfectly into the disc of the sun. For this to happen the camera needed to be approximately 630 feet from the woman. (The sun subtends an angle of just over 0.5 degree, for a 5.5 foot tall object to subtend an angle of 0.5 degree the distance is 630.26 feet.)
As food for thought:
1)The format of the camera doesn’t matter, 4x5 view camera or cell phone it needs to be 630 feet back.
2) The focal length of the lens doesn’t matter for the relationship of the sun to the woman.
Shoot the picture with a wide angle the silhouette is same, however with the wide angle it’s just a spot in the center of the picture, probably
not useable, bit it’s there.
3) You now need to select the correct focal length to appropriately fill the frame.
4) If perspective is important, you can’t “zoom with your feet” you set perspective with your feet, you zoom with focal length.
5) It will take a big chunk of telephoto for this picture. With full frame (24x36 mm) a 1000 mm lens covers about 2.5 degrees, and since the
subject is 0.5 degrees you might want even more telephoto, or you just use your longest lens and crop.
6) There are many examples of where perspective is important (but not as extreme as in the example).
7) Portraits are an example, when you get to close you get the large bulbus nose (people think of this as wide angle distortion, but it’s not, it’s
perspective. To get the whole face into the frame a wide angle lens was needed.)
I throw this out as a starting point for any comments on perspective.
As food for thought:
1)The format of the camera doesn’t matter, 4x5 view camera or cell phone it needs to be 630 feet back.
2) The focal length of the lens doesn’t matter for the relationship of the sun to the woman.
Shoot the picture with a wide angle the silhouette is same, however with the wide angle it’s just a spot in the center of the picture, probably
not useable, bit it’s there.
3) You now need to select the correct focal length to appropriately fill the frame.
4) If perspective is important, you can’t “zoom with your feet” you set perspective with your feet, you zoom with focal length.
5) It will take a big chunk of telephoto for this picture. With full frame (24x36 mm) a 1000 mm lens covers about 2.5 degrees, and since the
subject is 0.5 degrees you might want even more telephoto, or you just use your longest lens and crop.
6) There are many examples of where perspective is important (but not as extreme as in the example).
7) Portraits are an example, when you get to close you get the large bulbus nose (people think of this as wide angle distortion, but it’s not, it’s
perspective. To get the whole face into the frame a wide angle lens was needed.)
I throw this out as a starting point for any comments on perspective.
Oct 25, 2017 19:41:08 #
Those are all interesting and important aspects of perspective--often forgotten. Often I have seen examples of a person the height of the Sun in pictures, using a 1000mm lens and backing up. But now that you mention it, those pictures did not fill the frame--the person and Sun were important in the composition, but did not fill the frame. For that you would have to crop or get a longer lens.
No doubt you are right that 630 makes the person the height of the Sun, on any format--but the smaller the format (that is, the longer the effective focal length), the less you will crop (or the less surrounding area you will capture) from the scene. (As you say, it is the focal length that fills the frame--or the effective focal length or the format used.)
I read in the paper that judges will not allow photographic evidence unless it was taken with a normal lens--they have the idea that short or long lenses distort the true facts. I have a feeling photographers told them this...
No doubt you are right that 630 makes the person the height of the Sun, on any format--but the smaller the format (that is, the longer the effective focal length), the less you will crop (or the less surrounding area you will capture) from the scene. (As you say, it is the focal length that fills the frame--or the effective focal length or the format used.)
I read in the paper that judges will not allow photographic evidence unless it was taken with a normal lens--they have the idea that short or long lenses distort the true facts. I have a feeling photographers told them this...
Oct 25, 2017 19:47:17 #
I like the idea of the bikini clad woman. I would not have given a thought to all the other stuff. 
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Oct 25, 2017 19:59:02 #
Long ago I read a formula (in an article by one of the Deardorf sons, Merle) about how the distance from which a photograph is seen is just as important for apparent perspective as the distance of the camera to the subject of the picture. A wide angle portrait does not look distorted if you get close enough, and a long telephoto portrait does not look flat or drawn if you back up. He suggested putting wide angle shots on the walls of a hallway where people see them close, and long telephoto shots behind furniture such as a sofa, piano, or whatnot so people stand back to see them. You can see this by holding a wide-angle enlargement close to your face--even the enlarged nose does not look wrong when seen close enough.
I believe the formula was that the focal length of the lens times the degree of magnification in the photo will give the perspective appearance of normal perspectives when seen at that distance. So a 12 inch lens (on an 8x10 camera, for instance) would make a contact print of the 8x10 negative look like normal perspective at a distance of 12 inches from the picture. (And lo and behold, a 12 inch lens is normal for an 8x10).
The problem with photographers is getting people to look at pictures from the correct distance for each shot. Rather, we have tried to accustom people to the effects of different distances and different focal lengths--and different degrees of enlargement--and accepting the results. However, it may happen that a shot is taken for display in a particular place, seen by people at a particular distance, either in the home or in a trade show.
I may have said perspective above in some cases where I really meant angle of view (normal lenses), but was using common language.
I believe the formula was that the focal length of the lens times the degree of magnification in the photo will give the perspective appearance of normal perspectives when seen at that distance. So a 12 inch lens (on an 8x10 camera, for instance) would make a contact print of the 8x10 negative look like normal perspective at a distance of 12 inches from the picture. (And lo and behold, a 12 inch lens is normal for an 8x10).
The problem with photographers is getting people to look at pictures from the correct distance for each shot. Rather, we have tried to accustom people to the effects of different distances and different focal lengths--and different degrees of enlargement--and accepting the results. However, it may happen that a shot is taken for display in a particular place, seen by people at a particular distance, either in the home or in a trade show.
I may have said perspective above in some cases where I really meant angle of view (normal lenses), but was using common language.
Oct 25, 2017 19:59:44 #
Charles 46277 wrote:
I read in the paper that...
"The paper" is always the best source.
Oct 25, 2017 20:16:17 #
Charles 46277 wrote:
I read in the paper that judges will not allow photographic evidence unless it was taken with a normal lens--they have the idea that short or long lenses distort the true facts. I have a feeling photographers told them this...
I read in the paper that judges will not allow photographic evidence unless it was taken with a normal lens--they have the idea that short or long lenses distort the true facts. I have a feeling photographers told them this...
There may be some judges who have that rule, but it is by no means universal. I have done a few photos for court evidence, and I was never asked what lens I used. One case I remember was an interior shot of a small room which I would have to have used a wide angle to get it all in.
Oct 25, 2017 20:25:56 #
How can we get the right perspective if you're talking about a bikini clad woman without a photograph of her?
Oct 25, 2017 20:27:47 #
Charles 46277 wrote:
Those are all interesting and important aspects of... (show quote)
A great example!
I've discussed in several past articles the reasons why "zoom with your feet" is invalid. Certain people dispute it everytime, but choosing a camera to subject distance is not a function of focal length and does not even require looking through a viewfinder. Focal length selection is only to get the framing.
A recent exchange (my article is on the page prior to this response):
http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-492360-4.html#8298464
Oct 26, 2017 09:18:17 #
billnikon
Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
Mobius wrote:
I have been reading UHH now for a while and I don’... (show quote)
PERSPECTIVE, like every thing else in photographer, is a result of years of practice, practice, practice. Perspective is personal and developed at a personal level through training and practice.
Oct 26, 2017 09:23:16 #
billnikon wrote:
PERSPECTIVE, like every thing else in photographer, is a result of years of practice, practice, practice. Perspective is personal and developed at a personal level through training and practice.
The science of it is objective, the experience is subjective.
Oct 26, 2017 10:21:35 #
billnikon wrote:
PERSPECTIVE, like every thing else in photographer, is a result of years of practice, practice, practice. Perspective is personal and developed at a personal level through training and practice.
The perspective being discussed is not a technique: it cannot be practiced. It is purely physics that is not necessarily related to photography. As noted above a photographer need not look through a viewfinder or even have a camera to select a desired perspective. The OP calculated a precise camera to subject distance for a specific perspective (valid for any camera) without reference to either a camera or lens.
Oct 26, 2017 10:55:48 #
Today the word "perspective" is often used for the word "opinion." Any opinion is called a perspective. It is the same with "viewpoint"--any opinion is not properly called a viewpoint in technical work. I think this pop usage is all right--but misleading where a scholarly sense of the word is wanted. In the pop sense, the styles of the Pictorialists, the Impressionists, the Photo-Seccessionists, etc., are perspectives in style--but not perspectives in the technical or scientific sense.
Oct 26, 2017 11:03:17 #
Charles 46277 wrote:
Today the word "perspective" is often us... (show quote)
Some say that the pun is the lowest form of humor. The OP wrote a serious article with clear meaning, and responding with a pun is perhaps not appropriate.
Oct 26, 2017 12:15:38 #
The original example by the OP has little to do with perspective. In fact, I would say nothing to do with it. The original example is rather about lens optics and focal length dynamics. Perspective deals with converging lines and objects in relation to distance. Let's put this in perspective.
Mobius wrote:
I have been reading UHH now for a while and I donâ... (show quote)
Oct 26, 2017 12:38:57 #
Fotoartist wrote:
The original example by the OP has little to do with perspective. In fact, I would say nothing to do with it. The original example is rather about lens optics and focal length dynamics. Perspective deals with converging lines and objects in relation to distance. Let's put this in perspective.
As the OP stated, with a great example, and I have also discussed with lesser examples...
Perspective is absolutely unrelated to the lens focal length (which only determines framing). Perspective does involve "objects in relation to distance".
Read the example cited by the OP again. The calculated distance is valid for any camera or lens! The camera to subject distance in the OP's example has to be 630 feet, period.
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