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Do CDs Sound Better than Vinyl Records?
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Oct 14, 2017 20:06:38   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Listeners of MP3s are “reminded” of the music rather than actually hearing the full DR or frequency spectrum. For many, this is adequate. For others who have actually heard the full frequency and dynamic range of music, it is woefully inadequate, even when heard with “old ears”.

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Oct 14, 2017 20:16:47   #
dead2fred Loc: Da Bronx
 
Back in the vinyl days, I had a chance to hear a copy of the band FM recorded on a direct to disc LP. Big WOW! I think it was from Mobile fidelity sound labs from Memphis, Tenn. Those discs cost around fifteen bucks back in the seventies and were well worth it. I ended up with a bunch of them and when some of those came out on CD, the sound was not the same. The music was recorded to a master disc, not tape. As I sold off all my stereo equipment as my four kids hit school, I'm stuck now with what's on my computer but, my records are still in my attic. Maybe I'll start spending some money on a new system and not so much on camera stuff...

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Oct 14, 2017 20:33:10   #
Texcaster Loc: Queensland
 
JohnSwanda wrote:
I guess I am more of a music lover than a hifi buff. I can appreciate the sound of a high end sound system, but it isn't necessary for me to appreciate music. I remember reading an article at the height of the hifi craze saying that the interest in increasingly better and more expensive audio equipment with decreasingly subtle differences was a kind of obsession.


Amen. Almost everything ever recorded is at our fingertips. I regularly follow popular and esoteric musical trails on youtube. Much of this music is from the early days of recording and the sound quality can be very marginal.

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Oct 14, 2017 20:35:50   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
dead2fred wrote:
Back in the vinyl days, I had a chance to hear a copy of the band FM recorded on a direct to disc LP. Big WOW! I think it was from Mobile fidelity sound labs from Memphis, Tenn. Those discs cost around fifteen bucks back in the seventies and were well worth it. I ended up with a bunch of them and when some of those came out on CD, the sound was not the same. The music was recorded to a master disc, not tape. As I sold off all my stereo equipment as my four kids hit school, I'm stuck now with what's on my computer but, my records are still in my attic. Maybe I'll start spending some money on a new system and not so much on camera stuff...
Back in the vinyl days, I had a chance to hear a c... (show quote)


Some of the original 35mm Command series direct to disk recordings (with no intermediate tape master) were exceptional - as good as LPs get.

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Oct 14, 2017 20:46:44   #
Retired fat guy with a camera Loc: Colorado
 
I almost hear you, about hearing loss. I worked heavy constitution. As a pipefitter, grinders, bashing metal with hammers takes a toll. Plus playing drums in bands for 50 years, it is a wonder I can hear at all.

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Oct 14, 2017 21:19:04   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Retired fat guy with a camera wrote:
I almost hear you, about hearing loss. I worked heavy constitution. As a pipefitter, grinders, bashing metal with hammers takes a toll. Plus playing drums in bands for 50 years, it is a wonder I can hear at all.


Boy, I am with you there. In the Army in VietNam, we shot ‘till our ears would ring - obviously no hearing protection. Now I’m almost completely deaf in my right ear. Your jobs can disable you... I’m really lucky that’s the worst that happened to me.

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Oct 14, 2017 21:46:45   #
boberic Loc: Quiet Corner, Connecticut. Ex long Islander
 
St.Mary's wrote:
There are several web sites that will test your hearing as to the limit of sound at a certain frequency that you hear. My 80 plus old ears can't hear a damn thing over 6k cycles.


What did you say?

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Oct 14, 2017 21:51:14   #
robertjerl Loc: Corona, California
 
Yes good hearing is something I really miss, at least without the constant tinnitus.
Two years in Nam, lots of noise but the clincher was two M-42 Dusters parked 25 yards from the Tac Ops Center where I worked. When they fired (240 rpm of high vel 40 mm - each) the sound came in the door of Tac Ops and the concussion just pounded us. The walls were three feet thick, wood with sand bag filling and 18 inch concrete and steel reinforced ceiling, entrance was a dog leg with the opening pointed right at the Dusters so we were in the sound box of very big percussion instrument. Add on multiple tropical fungus infections in both ears with scare tissue.
Three weeks ago a VA doctor told me to get an MRI of my sinuses because the fungus sometimes migrates along the sinus cavities and basically stays in your flesh for life with flair ups from time to time. My last one that took me to the Ear Nose and Throat Doc was about 5 years ago. And I regularly get mild ones that some times cause light bleeding from my ear canal. Guess I better call Kaiser and try to get one scheduled.

34 years as a classroom teacher didn't help either. Have you ever been in a room of 30-40 teenagers talking while they work?

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Oct 14, 2017 21:55:13   #
cameranut Loc: North Carolina
 
I didn't read all of the link provided but I'm assuming the subject of proper care for vinyl never came up. I grew up with vinyl, both long playing (331/3) and the 45's, and no one I knew ever bothered to keep their records in their paper jackets. Of course, this created deep scratches that would cause the records to sound icky or "skip". I tried to take care of mine and keep them in their paper sleeves that they were sold with. I still have some in excellent condition. I was lucky enough to have a great stereo to play them on with access to bass and treble settings that allowed for excellent sound. You had to have a very good quality diamond needle for the best sound. Miss those days. Actually, it is the 60's music that I miss the most.

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Oct 14, 2017 22:29:28   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
TriX wrote:
That is an excellent point. Perhaps that’s one of the reasons that so many listeners seem satisfied with the compressed DR and lost octave at each end of the spectrum of MP3s (or perhaps that’s all they have ever heard).

When I listened to LPs, I used lots of signal processing - a DBX 3BX expander (set at 1.2x expansion) to increase DR and a Carver “Sonic Hologram Generator”,which essentially increases channel separation and widens the sound stage. No more. I don’t even use a preamp - just a passive remote controlled step attenuator between the CD (or SACD) player and the power amps.

For what it’s worth, one of the measured differences between the solid state amps I characterized and the tube amps was the distribution of the harmonic distortion. The tube amps tended to have more even order distortion products while the solid state amps tended to more odd order distortion. I theorized (although I am not a musician by any means) that the ear/ brain accustomed to western music tends to find even order (octave) harmonics more pleasing. You can find the same phenomena in LPs vs CDs. A few years ago, a major audiophile publication tested multiple CD players. Interestingly, the ones with the poorest square wave response were preferred by the listeners. Since a square wave in the frequency domain consists of every odd harmonic of the equivalent frequency of the rise time, you would expect that the best defined square waves with the fastest Tr should produce more odd order harmonics. The same is true of tube amps - poorer square wave response compared to solid state (more rounded “corners”) results in fewer odd order harmonics. There are other differences as well, but since styli in LP groves have a very difficult time with abrupt physical changes (square waves and fast transients/rise times) due to physical inertia, perhaps the “softer” transition and attendant lower odd order distortion is more pleasing.
That is an excellent point. Perhaps that’s one of ... (show quote)


The best musical instrument amps have tube circuits in them to take advantage of the variable third order harmonic distortion. Transistor amps and digital circuits are clean... until they aren’t. Waveform clipping occurs at full saturation and it’s very harsh.

Many top engineers and recording artists still use classic tube preamps for vocals, along with tube-and-optical compressors and “leveling amplifiers.”

Also, there are numerous digital plug-ins for recording programs on computers. Many plugins emulate all the old recording gear from the ‘60s, ‘70s, and ‘80s!

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Oct 14, 2017 22:40:53   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
burkphoto wrote:
The best musical instrument amps have tube circuits in them to take advantage of the variable third order harmonic distortion. Transistor amps and digital circuits are clean... until they aren’t. Waveform clipping occurs at full saturation and it’s very harsh.

Many top engineers and recording artists still use classic tube preamps for vocals, along with tube-and-optical compressors and “leveling amplifiers.”

Also, there are numerous digital plug-ins for recording programs on computers. Many plugins emulate all the old recording gear from the ‘60s, ‘70s, and ‘80s!
The best musical instrument amps have tube circuit... (show quote)


Exactly. That’s the other advantage of tubes. When they are overdriven, the distortion increases gently in a linear manner, unlike solid state amps where distortion increases very rapidly when overdriven, hence the extensive use of tubes in mic preamps (12AX7s are a favorite). I recently measured a very clean solid state power amp that went from .05% THD at 100 watts to almost 1% at 110 watts.

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Oct 15, 2017 01:04:20   #
ab7rn Loc: Portland, Oregon
 
Back in the 50's I worked for RCA. My boss and I were both into HI FI. WE built speaker cabinets and amps. The most expensive parts were speakers and transformers. We checked our work with high end oscilaters and tektronic scopes. The speakers in that day required large magnets. The modern speakers have stronger magnets and are better than we had then. We could have very good systems now due to the speakers and less need for transformers, but the companies don't see the market for Hi Fi. because most people now have never heard a good system for home use. Young people are used to music loud enough to ruin their hearing and artificial sound.

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Oct 15, 2017 01:58:38   #
robertjerl Loc: Corona, California
 
Back in 1968 one of the guys in my came back from Tokyo R&R with a Teac reel to reel, a bunch of tapes and a set of studio head phones that cost him $150 by themselves. He let some of us take turns listening. That system was amazing, "From the New World", Op. 95, B. 178 popularly known as the New World Symphony by Antonín Dvořák is known for the great differences in volume from passage to passage from thundering horns and drums to soft violins, flutes and piccolos. With the headphone's volume knob set to Zero and the amp volume set to 1 I could hear every single note. They were so good we had to go over and shake him to let him know when the alert siren went off - he couldn't hear it.

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Oct 15, 2017 08:54:14   #
MrBob Loc: lookout Mtn. NE Alabama
 
cameranut wrote:
I didn't read all of the link provided but I'm assuming the subject of proper care for vinyl never came up. I grew up with vinyl, both long playing (331/3) and the 45's, and no one I knew ever bothered to keep their records in their paper jackets. Of course, this created deep scratches that would cause the records to sound icky or "skip". I tried to take care of mine and keep them in their paper sleeves that they were sold with. I still have some in excellent condition. I was lucky enough to have a great stereo to play them on with access to bass and treble settings that allowed for excellent sound. You had to have a very good quality diamond needle for the best sound. Miss those days. Actually, it is the 60's music that I miss the most.
I didn't read all of the link provided but I'm ass... (show quote)


Subscribe to Sirius-XM and hear 60s all day long.... My XM goes all day on my deck with 60s, 70s, and lately late 40s. Yes, the days of my manual AR turntable and high dollar stylus are gone but the music still sounds pretty good through the JBL speakers...

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Oct 15, 2017 11:52:54   #
cameranut Loc: North Carolina
 
MrBob wrote:
Subscribe to Sirius-XM and hear 60s all day long.... My XM goes all day on my deck with 60s, 70s, and lately late 40s. Yes, the days of my manual AR turntable and high dollar stylus are gone but the music still sounds pretty good through the JBL speakers...


I'll check that out. Thank you.
Our stereo Am/FM radio and turntable, may need a new needle in order to use now. My brother bought it in the early 60's. However, it is amazing what you can pull up on You Tube. Every song and tune that has ever been can be found, and the Phillip's speakers with sub woofer that I bought to replace the old computer speakers is pretty amazing for the size.

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