Suggestions Welcome- Outdoor Ceremony
Aug 14, 2017 23:00:30 #
Ok time to put on your thinking caps... Outdoor wedding ceremony up by these crosses, At this time of day(as shot-could be as early as 2pm or as late as 5pm).
They want to be up in the shade, but are open to moving out into the sun...
I'm worried about 'Fill Lighting' & no crosses coming out of heads. I'm thinking...the crosses: Maybe put 1-2 lights at the bottom and shoot upwards to give them some separation~ maybe even throw a red Gel on them?
the ceremony: Maybe throwing a light on left, between pastor and groom...to help light pastor and front of Bride's dress? And maybe a hair/rim light on bride? &-or maybe a light down low shooting up on the dress?
And a fill light near camera to remove face shadows? Maybe 200mm lens, to bring crosses closer, but easier to position away from top of heads?
Gotta tell you, I'm not thrilled or looking forward to this!
Any observations, tips, suggestions - Appreciated!
They want to be up in the shade, but are open to moving out into the sun...
I'm worried about 'Fill Lighting' & no crosses coming out of heads. I'm thinking...the crosses: Maybe put 1-2 lights at the bottom and shoot upwards to give them some separation~ maybe even throw a red Gel on them?
the ceremony: Maybe throwing a light on left, between pastor and groom...to help light pastor and front of Bride's dress? And maybe a hair/rim light on bride? &-or maybe a light down low shooting up on the dress?
And a fill light near camera to remove face shadows? Maybe 200mm lens, to bring crosses closer, but easier to position away from top of heads?
Gotta tell you, I'm not thrilled or looking forward to this!
Any observations, tips, suggestions - Appreciated!
Aug 15, 2017 09:58:26 #
If you are using studio lights I suggest bare bulb flash as a fill light. Have the flash about 20 feet from the bride.
Aug 15, 2017 10:02:53 #
Aug 15, 2017 11:43:50 #
Tough one. Not crazy about red light on the crosses, reminds me of a church around here that gets made fun of all the time. "The Church of the red neon cross", etc. Red can be seen as "bloody" or even "evil" and other things. I'm not so sure that unless you have some pretty powerful lights, that they will overpower the sun enough to make a big difference in color. I could be wrong.
I do like your idea of a 200 mm lens, but you might end up losing the crosses altogether behind them anyway.
What would worry me most is mottled light coming through the leaves. It's a nightmare to try to fix in PP. If they are indeed in full shade, you are golden, if they are partially in the shade.........uh, I'd be panic stricken right now. Maybe a good idea to go back to the place, and take along a couple of victims, or, models as the case may be, that are close to the size and height of the B&G. I never use the actual couple when experimenting. I think it makes me look like I'm "practicing" (which to be honest, I am.. HA)
Do you have a power source for studio lights? If not, speedlights may be a big challenge power wise to balance out the bright sun in the background.
Wow, you've given me a lot to think about. It will be interesting to see if Ed has any better suggestions. I think I would personally do the practice thing, and come up with the best solution I could, and then do my best. Sometimes challenging lighting, is just challenging, and we can only do our best, and make up for the ones we don't have control over the light, by moving people around after the ceremony and get exactly what we need.
I do like your idea of a 200 mm lens, but you might end up losing the crosses altogether behind them anyway.
What would worry me most is mottled light coming through the leaves. It's a nightmare to try to fix in PP. If they are indeed in full shade, you are golden, if they are partially in the shade.........uh, I'd be panic stricken right now. Maybe a good idea to go back to the place, and take along a couple of victims, or, models as the case may be, that are close to the size and height of the B&G. I never use the actual couple when experimenting. I think it makes me look like I'm "practicing" (which to be honest, I am.. HA)
Do you have a power source for studio lights? If not, speedlights may be a big challenge power wise to balance out the bright sun in the background.
Wow, you've given me a lot to think about. It will be interesting to see if Ed has any better suggestions. I think I would personally do the practice thing, and come up with the best solution I could, and then do my best. Sometimes challenging lighting, is just challenging, and we can only do our best, and make up for the ones we don't have control over the light, by moving people around after the ceremony and get exactly what we need.
Aug 15, 2017 17:37:56 #
Hi gang- here's my take!
If you are concerned about difficult conditions, where time and access to the venue is possible, a practice session or a dry run is a good approach, however, this is not always practical or possible. In my early days on the job, I was simply assigned to each wedding coverage and "Lord only knew" what to expect.The approach was to be prepared for any number of conditions and use our "tool kit" of equipment and controls to work around any and all unexpected technical and aesthetic issues. The basic idea was to have a number of alternative methodologies and be able to remedy any adverse issues, on the spot, as they emerged. The basic tool kit is simple, a camera with a zoom lens, a simple on-the-camera light source and full control over focal length, aperture and shutters speed. All additional ligating gear and accessories are helpful but not always required for basically good results.
As most of y'all know, I am a big fan of multiple off camera lighting but remember, I travel with at least two assistants, one of whom can arrive at any particular ceremony or reception venue in advance of my arrival (and of course the couple and their guests) and set up all the lighting gear. If the schedule is such that I will be at that venue for a limited time- like just shooting the ceremony, my assistant can quickly pack up the gear while I move on to the next location. I prefer multiple off camera lighting at indoor venues and a out-of-door location especially if the ceremony or reception goes into the evening or nighttime hours. Sometimes, I simply work with one off camera light, mounted in a mono-pod, which is manned by my assistant- my on-camera light acts as a fill source.
In out-of-door daytime conditions, I have an entirely different approach, that is, the simple system I alluded to at the beginning of this post. I prefer to use available light + flash fill in theses circumstances for a number of reasons. I don't have to worry about the availability of AC power for studio-type mono-lights, nor the difficulties of setting up light stands and cables in high trafficked areas. I can concentrate of capturing spontaneous events and expressions as they occur without having to address lighting issues like ending up shooting into my own lights or accidentally getting some of the gear in my images. I have a predetermined methodology for every kind of natural lighting situation or problem.
Of course, for formal sessions, I can usually find the exact kind of natural lightning I prefer but, obviously, in candid shooting situations like ceremonies, I can't move folks around and accordingly, have to improvise around what ever lighting situation exists. The worst case scenario is bright sunlight at high-noon. My simple method is to use a relatively high powered flash unit on the camera and set my aperture for the flash setting- I usually like f'16 or f/11- I then adjust the shutter speed for the appropriate SETTING FOR THE DAYLIGHT EXPOSURE AT THAT F/STOP. At ISO 200, it will be at about 1/250 sec which is within the synchronization limits of my camera. The shadows will not always be where I like them but they will be very transparent at the resulting !:2 ratio. There will be ample depth of field, perhaps too much, so you will need to frame carefully to avoid distractions in the background such as those vertical structures "growing" out of peoples' heads. Sometimes a low camera position will give me a nice sky and clouds background.
Later in the afternoon, even bright direct sunlight can be tamed in a similar method to what I have explained above. The sun can supply a great side of back light that can serve as a very effective rim, hair/veil or portrait-like lighting depending on the angle at which the light strikes the various subjects in a ceremony situation and your camera position.If you reduce the output of you flash unit, a more dramatic low key ratio can be achieved.
If you are able to work in open shade, a shaded area, or in hazy or overcast lighting you have many options. You can the use wider apertures to help subdue distracting backgrounds. You may be able to work without flash fill but even in overcast lighting, if the light is coming down directly form above the subject it can wash doe the face and fail to illuminate the eyes and the eye sockets resulting in "raccoon eyes" where everyone looks tired or like they have "shiners'- black eyes! Just a wink of flash will remedy this. If you can work under a overhang such as a porch, veranda, or a gazebo, you will have automatic attractive lighting- that is where the directional light comes in form the sides and can provide some really fine effects. Sometimes a tree can provide this kind of shade but you have to be careful to avoid spotty light patterns in sunny days.
Theses systems will work with or without light modifiers. The effective power output of your on-camera speed light can be controlled by increasing or decreasing the power or the f/stop settings. Sometimes, for the sake of quickness, I just put a few fingers in front of the unit and thereby attenuate the light output or I just pop off the parabolic reflector (I use Lumadyne gear) and use bare bulb- that kills 2 stop of output. By the way, in a small room with light walls and ceilings, a bare bulb will produce an omni-directional bounce kinda soft effect, however, in large spaces or out of doors, it is just about the same as a point light source- just less effectively powerful.
As for distracting backgrounds, there are a number of remedies. When possible, the use of longer focal lengths and wide apertures will render certain background distractions out of focus and at the same time produce romantic "bokeh". Sometimes just a small shift in camera position will eliminate a distracting element or structure. A medium telephoto lens or focal length setting is recommended. Sometimes a very long lens tends to compress the perspective in such a manner that background seems to be closer in to the subject- in some cases that can bring more attention to a distracting element- something to consider. If you expose for the flash and the use a shutter speed that slightly underexposes the background, this too can help subdue a bad background, however, you should not over do this or you will get a day for nigh shot- too dark in the background.
About those crosses: Well, how you approach this may depend on your clients' attitude toward the religious aspect of their wedding. I have photographed weddings where the was little or no emphasis on religion or where the couple were married in a church or synagogue just to appease their parents or family. I have also covered wedding where the clients told me that the wanted images to represent Christ's or God's presence at their ceremony and I made certain to include lots of religious artifacts, stained glass windows and statuary in their coverage. If that is the cases, those crosses can make for some great dramatic imagery. I would assume, the clients having their wedding at that location is indicative of some religious connection.
My basic advice is the old Boy Scout motto, BE PREPARED! Go to each job with a number of pre-planned working methods but also don't get flustered if Murphy's law sets in- just go to an alternative approach. Sometimes where we are capturing "must-have shots" we need to shoot first and ask questions later. Even if there are distractions or other issues it is best to first shoot and nail the shot as to content- after which you can change your viewpoint, aperture, focal length or lightning and try to perfect and refine the shot. Back in the old darkroom days, killing a bad background or removing other bloopers, entailed "major surgery" or at least some costly airbrush work. Nowadays, we can erase and replace virtually anything with a few keystrokes or mouse movements.
Most of what I have written thus far, has to do with candid ceremony and reception shooting. For formals I may use similar methods but more often use a kinda studio-like setup for indoor formals and reflectors and gobos for additive and subtractive lighting respectively.
I hope this helps. With kindest regards, Ed
If you are concerned about difficult conditions, where time and access to the venue is possible, a practice session or a dry run is a good approach, however, this is not always practical or possible. In my early days on the job, I was simply assigned to each wedding coverage and "Lord only knew" what to expect.The approach was to be prepared for any number of conditions and use our "tool kit" of equipment and controls to work around any and all unexpected technical and aesthetic issues. The basic idea was to have a number of alternative methodologies and be able to remedy any adverse issues, on the spot, as they emerged. The basic tool kit is simple, a camera with a zoom lens, a simple on-the-camera light source and full control over focal length, aperture and shutters speed. All additional ligating gear and accessories are helpful but not always required for basically good results.
As most of y'all know, I am a big fan of multiple off camera lighting but remember, I travel with at least two assistants, one of whom can arrive at any particular ceremony or reception venue in advance of my arrival (and of course the couple and their guests) and set up all the lighting gear. If the schedule is such that I will be at that venue for a limited time- like just shooting the ceremony, my assistant can quickly pack up the gear while I move on to the next location. I prefer multiple off camera lighting at indoor venues and a out-of-door location especially if the ceremony or reception goes into the evening or nighttime hours. Sometimes, I simply work with one off camera light, mounted in a mono-pod, which is manned by my assistant- my on-camera light acts as a fill source.
In out-of-door daytime conditions, I have an entirely different approach, that is, the simple system I alluded to at the beginning of this post. I prefer to use available light + flash fill in theses circumstances for a number of reasons. I don't have to worry about the availability of AC power for studio-type mono-lights, nor the difficulties of setting up light stands and cables in high trafficked areas. I can concentrate of capturing spontaneous events and expressions as they occur without having to address lighting issues like ending up shooting into my own lights or accidentally getting some of the gear in my images. I have a predetermined methodology for every kind of natural lighting situation or problem.
Of course, for formal sessions, I can usually find the exact kind of natural lightning I prefer but, obviously, in candid shooting situations like ceremonies, I can't move folks around and accordingly, have to improvise around what ever lighting situation exists. The worst case scenario is bright sunlight at high-noon. My simple method is to use a relatively high powered flash unit on the camera and set my aperture for the flash setting- I usually like f'16 or f/11- I then adjust the shutter speed for the appropriate SETTING FOR THE DAYLIGHT EXPOSURE AT THAT F/STOP. At ISO 200, it will be at about 1/250 sec which is within the synchronization limits of my camera. The shadows will not always be where I like them but they will be very transparent at the resulting !:2 ratio. There will be ample depth of field, perhaps too much, so you will need to frame carefully to avoid distractions in the background such as those vertical structures "growing" out of peoples' heads. Sometimes a low camera position will give me a nice sky and clouds background.
Later in the afternoon, even bright direct sunlight can be tamed in a similar method to what I have explained above. The sun can supply a great side of back light that can serve as a very effective rim, hair/veil or portrait-like lighting depending on the angle at which the light strikes the various subjects in a ceremony situation and your camera position.If you reduce the output of you flash unit, a more dramatic low key ratio can be achieved.
If you are able to work in open shade, a shaded area, or in hazy or overcast lighting you have many options. You can the use wider apertures to help subdue distracting backgrounds. You may be able to work without flash fill but even in overcast lighting, if the light is coming down directly form above the subject it can wash doe the face and fail to illuminate the eyes and the eye sockets resulting in "raccoon eyes" where everyone looks tired or like they have "shiners'- black eyes! Just a wink of flash will remedy this. If you can work under a overhang such as a porch, veranda, or a gazebo, you will have automatic attractive lighting- that is where the directional light comes in form the sides and can provide some really fine effects. Sometimes a tree can provide this kind of shade but you have to be careful to avoid spotty light patterns in sunny days.
Theses systems will work with or without light modifiers. The effective power output of your on-camera speed light can be controlled by increasing or decreasing the power or the f/stop settings. Sometimes, for the sake of quickness, I just put a few fingers in front of the unit and thereby attenuate the light output or I just pop off the parabolic reflector (I use Lumadyne gear) and use bare bulb- that kills 2 stop of output. By the way, in a small room with light walls and ceilings, a bare bulb will produce an omni-directional bounce kinda soft effect, however, in large spaces or out of doors, it is just about the same as a point light source- just less effectively powerful.
As for distracting backgrounds, there are a number of remedies. When possible, the use of longer focal lengths and wide apertures will render certain background distractions out of focus and at the same time produce romantic "bokeh". Sometimes just a small shift in camera position will eliminate a distracting element or structure. A medium telephoto lens or focal length setting is recommended. Sometimes a very long lens tends to compress the perspective in such a manner that background seems to be closer in to the subject- in some cases that can bring more attention to a distracting element- something to consider. If you expose for the flash and the use a shutter speed that slightly underexposes the background, this too can help subdue a bad background, however, you should not over do this or you will get a day for nigh shot- too dark in the background.
About those crosses: Well, how you approach this may depend on your clients' attitude toward the religious aspect of their wedding. I have photographed weddings where the was little or no emphasis on religion or where the couple were married in a church or synagogue just to appease their parents or family. I have also covered wedding where the clients told me that the wanted images to represent Christ's or God's presence at their ceremony and I made certain to include lots of religious artifacts, stained glass windows and statuary in their coverage. If that is the cases, those crosses can make for some great dramatic imagery. I would assume, the clients having their wedding at that location is indicative of some religious connection.
My basic advice is the old Boy Scout motto, BE PREPARED! Go to each job with a number of pre-planned working methods but also don't get flustered if Murphy's law sets in- just go to an alternative approach. Sometimes where we are capturing "must-have shots" we need to shoot first and ask questions later. Even if there are distractions or other issues it is best to first shoot and nail the shot as to content- after which you can change your viewpoint, aperture, focal length or lightning and try to perfect and refine the shot. Back in the old darkroom days, killing a bad background or removing other bloopers, entailed "major surgery" or at least some costly airbrush work. Nowadays, we can erase and replace virtually anything with a few keystrokes or mouse movements.
Most of what I have written thus far, has to do with candid ceremony and reception shooting. For formals I may use similar methods but more often use a kinda studio-like setup for indoor formals and reflectors and gobos for additive and subtractive lighting respectively.
I hope this helps. With kindest regards, Ed
Aug 16, 2017 21:07:11 #
I am following this with eagerness. It seems that the few weddings that I have shot recently have been outside at the worst possible time of day (essentially high noon) with no cloud at all. The brides were advised that shadows would show. The worst was last summer when it was in an orchard, 1:00 pm. under a bramble arch. The sun couldn't have overpowered the shadow. Thankfully, I was only second shooter, my only requirement was to capture the groom's reaction upon seeing the bride. The sequence of shots is amazing. Country couple, farm tractor limos, etc.
Aug 17, 2017 00:19:54 #
Thanks guys! For the great tips and advise!
At least this is not a big hurry, so I have some time to work out and try some different approaches... There will be several shots outside, and they want sunset photos by the lake, So I’ll also be scrambling to keep up with the ambient as it falls....I feel the stress already, And I think I see that Murphy’s law, looking for an openning.
I have a battery pack for 2 strobes (400ws) - I’ve been able to arrange a visit for the venue in the near future, And looks like I’ll have 2-3 helpers, & a second shooter.
I’m going to try some ‘victim’ testing - And I’ll be sure to stay away from the red on the crosses!
Thought I’d try several different shots, with just the crosses, using some lighting and different angles, as ‘stock footage’ -to splice in with Photoshop if the need arises...They really want those included in some way.
I’m planning on having a Lumadyne or qflash - (even if I have to rent one)...as a powerful/broad fill flash, and try to set it up in the way Ed suggested. They also want sunset pictures by the lake, which will probly include the wedding party...So the more light I can drag around-the better.
The ‘mottled light coming through the leaves’ is a big concern, I’d rather have the fill in the 1:2 range, but if it’s ‘speckled’ light - think I’ll match the ambient with the flash, try not to blow out the (expensive)dress,then cut the exposure with the shutter and photoshop in the crosses.
I’d rather not move them out into the sun, but I’ll try making a PVC scrim to hold over them-and test that too.
Thanks again for giving me more ideas- the more things I can come up with, the more options I’ll have if Murphy tries anything :)
At least this is not a big hurry, so I have some time to work out and try some different approaches... There will be several shots outside, and they want sunset photos by the lake, So I’ll also be scrambling to keep up with the ambient as it falls....I feel the stress already, And I think I see that Murphy’s law, looking for an openning.
I have a battery pack for 2 strobes (400ws) - I’ve been able to arrange a visit for the venue in the near future, And looks like I’ll have 2-3 helpers, & a second shooter.
I’m going to try some ‘victim’ testing - And I’ll be sure to stay away from the red on the crosses!
Thought I’d try several different shots, with just the crosses, using some lighting and different angles, as ‘stock footage’ -to splice in with Photoshop if the need arises...They really want those included in some way.
I’m planning on having a Lumadyne or qflash - (even if I have to rent one)...as a powerful/broad fill flash, and try to set it up in the way Ed suggested. They also want sunset pictures by the lake, which will probly include the wedding party...So the more light I can drag around-the better.
The ‘mottled light coming through the leaves’ is a big concern, I’d rather have the fill in the 1:2 range, but if it’s ‘speckled’ light - think I’ll match the ambient with the flash, try not to blow out the (expensive)dress,then cut the exposure with the shutter and photoshop in the crosses.
I’d rather not move them out into the sun, but I’ll try making a PVC scrim to hold over them-and test that too.
Thanks again for giving me more ideas- the more things I can come up with, the more options I’ll have if Murphy tries anything :)
Aug 18, 2017 14:08:56 #
Bermbuster, this scene looks likes an exiting challenge for the wedding photographer (you). I can say exiting because it is not me that has to figure it out. Nonetheless, I am fascinated by this spot where they want to exchange vows. I think one of the first steps would be to understand what the significance of this site is to them. You have three crosses, some very large boulders of Stonehenge proportions, and a clump of mature trees large enough to block the sun (except for dappled light). After coming back to this pic you provided, I keep coming up with the same concerns that you have. Wish I could give you all the solutions, but then that is what Ed is for and he has provided lots of good advise including "be prepared" for anything.
Some thoughts going on in my head. I think one of the biggest concerns as you have pointed out is crosses coming out of heads or wedding party blocking the view of crosses. Your trial run with victims will help determine that. One thing to consider is having the ceremony to boulder left or boulder right. The crosses would be visible only in the wider shots or shots from an angle, but they would be more complete and a part of the scene. In terms of lighting the crosses, I think they would look nice as a silhouette or just as they are in your sample pic. You want them to be a part of the background but not steal attention away from the couple. Lighting the couple will be a science experiment for sure. Maybe an out of box solution could be mounting flashes in the trees
and using fill on camera. Perhaps, lighting the boulders with a blue gel or the dominant wedding color of bridesmaid dresses could provide a nice effect. Maybe not, it would all be a part of your experimentation.
Just some thoughts going on in my head. No claim to them being helpful, but I am compelled to share.
Some thoughts going on in my head. I think one of the biggest concerns as you have pointed out is crosses coming out of heads or wedding party blocking the view of crosses. Your trial run with victims will help determine that. One thing to consider is having the ceremony to boulder left or boulder right. The crosses would be visible only in the wider shots or shots from an angle, but they would be more complete and a part of the scene. In terms of lighting the crosses, I think they would look nice as a silhouette or just as they are in your sample pic. You want them to be a part of the background but not steal attention away from the couple. Lighting the couple will be a science experiment for sure. Maybe an out of box solution could be mounting flashes in the trees
and using fill on camera. Perhaps, lighting the boulders with a blue gel or the dominant wedding color of bridesmaid dresses could provide a nice effect. Maybe not, it would all be a part of your experimentation.Just some thoughts going on in my head. No claim to them being helpful, but I am compelled to share.
Aug 18, 2017 14:53:17 #
Thanks for sharing your thoughts jaysnave! I needed that.
I like that idea of lighting the rocks & moving to one side or the other...I'll test that out.
I'm also thinking of trying to get the crosses to go into silhouette, that would be really the easier route to finalize in Pp, but I'll have to see what effect it has overall.
I'm also thinking this might be a good Black & White ;)
Mainly, ..You guys have been kinda quiet, and I wanted to nudge your noggins!
I had been chewing on this location a couple days, or, gritting my teeth. Now I'm really glad I put it up, my noggin got nudged! Thanks again!
I like that idea of lighting the rocks & moving to one side or the other...I'll test that out.
I'm also thinking of trying to get the crosses to go into silhouette, that would be really the easier route to finalize in Pp, but I'll have to see what effect it has overall.
I'm also thinking this might be a good Black & White ;)
Mainly, ..You guys have been kinda quiet, and I wanted to nudge your noggins!
I had been chewing on this location a couple days, or, gritting my teeth. Now I'm really glad I put it up, my noggin got nudged! Thanks again!
Aug 18, 2017 17:48:31 #
BermBuster wrote:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts jaysnave! I neede... (show quote)
BB, I get curious about these things. Please share the back story of this location when you get more scoop on it. Please share your test shots as well. We can all pitch in.
Aug 18, 2017 19:12:26 #
I certainly will.. So far, I know it's a private church retreat type place. It's almost 4hrs from me. But arrangements are being made so I can get in and spend some time...hopefully within the next month.
The reservations have been reserved,but, it is now in limbo, because the dress won't be in for at least 3 more months...so luckily I'm not rushed. Looks like the wedding is on hold, probly til next May.
But, if I can pull this off, it may lead to a semi steady gig, I'm hoping. :)
The reservations have been reserved,but, it is now in limbo, because the dress won't be in for at least 3 more months...so luckily I'm not rushed. Looks like the wedding is on hold, probly til next May.
But, if I can pull this off, it may lead to a semi steady gig, I'm hoping. :)
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