bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

I keep seeing in other forums (even other sections of UHH) where people keep complaining about "Uncle Bob" ruining their entire year, because he has a nice camera, maybe better than yours.... and he DARES to take pictures of the same thing you are wanting to shoot.

So, what we as photographers are saying is, If you are an Uncle, your pictures suck.
You have no right to try to capture memories of someone's day in a way that means something to you, because you may take a better photo than I do with my equipment that I paid a lot of money for.
If your name is Bob, you are to be ridiculed.
It is also widely known that friends can’t take good pictures.
Friend’s pictures are blurry.
People who take photographs are AWFUL people and should stop
Taking photographs, especially at a wedding, means that you are not enjoying yourself.
You should stop and have fun.
Everyone knows that Photography is not fun.

As a photographer myself, I make sure to publicly discourage others interest in photography, but it all still makes me sad, because I am an uncle, my name is Bob, and I have friends, and I take pictures at weddings.
I must be an awful, miserable human being, that deserves to be ridiculed.

I am glad that Ed posted his thoughts on negative posts about wedding photography, and that we should not post complaints about what we do, because frankly......it IS our choice to do it.

I know I'm a bit sensitive about the "Uncle Bob" instead of "Uncle Ed, Uncle Tim, or Uncle Sally (haha) " , but in the end, really, I think we need to accept that people will take pictures at a wedding. It is up to us to keep learning, get our work to a level that no mere mortal "Uncle Bob" can ever imagine being able to recreate and create artful, high quality albums that will be cherished for years, not lost on a cell phone or memory card somewhere.

Just my 2 cents.

BermBuster Loc: Hi Desert S.Cal

Now that made me chuckle :)
Let's have some respect for 'Uncle Bob', and quite being so insecure.
I have been 'Uncle Bob', Hated and despised by the Paid photog, And my pics were saved and the others thrown out because of the quality. So far... Now that I deal will all the Uncle Bobs from the other side, it hasn't been big deal. I see them lurking, and invite them to take shots 'after' I'm done. When I have a couple minutes, I'll talk to them, give them pointers, And a couple I Dare say, Have given me pointers! (The retired professionals).
One 'wanna be' that I gave tips to, recommends me to all his friends and extended relatives. Of course he shows up too, but thats ok :)
I've learned that Family members are family members...you have to deal with it, Sometimes their pics will be technically awful-but cherished, because they are family. And sometimes the 'Professional' pics will be technically awful-but cherished, because they were the "paid Professional".
I've also learned, that Sometimes others are better photogs than me... I'd rather learn and improve than hate and despise.

I do see your point - esp the 'BOB'. Personally, I could only wish that I meet you at one your families events. You could give me pointers, with no pressure or expectations on you-(from the family) :)
Maybe we should start circulating an Uncle 'Bubba', certainly he doesn't deserve to ruin our year!

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

I enjoyed your reply. I really do get tired of the people whining about it. People bringing cameras isn't new, I've not been shooting weddings as long as Ed, but certainly in the early 80's when I started, there were a LOT of people with their little 110's up to at least one that I remember, that brought equipment that rivaled Jim's (my mentor) 4x5. He always took it gracefully, and was willing to help and answer any questions. I try to emulate his demeanor, and I think that being easy going and enjoying people, makes my life SO MUCH EASIER than the people wanting to put "nobody with a camera is allowed to shoot any photos, or I will pack up and go home," clauses in their contracts. I personally would run if someone brought me a contract like that.... and yes, for my daughter's wedding, I did pay someone else, because I wanted to do "dad things" and will do it with my younger daughter if she ever decides to marry.

BermBuster Loc: Hi Desert S.Cal

Personally I think it is just insecurity. I try to remember I'm just paid help trying to do the best I can. They don't really care what problems I have or why, this is their event and their family. I try not to bother them as much as possible, and try to get all expectations ironed out before the event. I do warn that them that other flashes going off -can affect my photos, so most will ask their guests to hold off on the flashes during the ceremony-and I always tell them I don't mind posing formals, and letting family and friends shoot away as soon as I finish. Most people understand, and some are just jerks-thats their nature :)
I like your philosophy, ...'easy going and enjoy people'.. I'll have to remember that.
'Till the next Uncle Bubba outshoots me!

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Sadly, I have no nephews or nieces- that's the way my family situation worked out. Haply, over the years, a few of my close friends endowed me with the title of Honorary Uncle to their children- it's an honor- I love it! Officially, I am a "Daddy" and a "Grandpa" so I am also known as Grandpa Ed! The only name that bugs me is Mr. Ed- he was a talking horse in a TV series back in the 60s. Kinda like Frances the Talking Mule of WWI movie fame. Well- I suppose that's better than being named for a talking Volkswagen- remember "My Mother the Car"?

Just for the record, I have never resented amateur photographers, even the ones who take pictures at my wedding assignments. Sure, they can become an unmitigated pain in the neck if things get out of hand but in reality, most folks are nice and things can be worked out. you gotta have a way with people in this job.i want all the guest to fully enjoy the wedding celebrations. I have learned how to control the "cell phone paparazzi".

People hiring amateur photographers for their weddings is certainly nothing new and has very little to do with the digital age. Some folks just don't have the budget for a professional photographer and some have the funds but don't consider it a priority. So...they get a benevolent relative, friend, or photography student with a camera and let them do the honors. Perhaps they get a kid who wants the experience? Back in the day, it may have been Uncle George with his spiffy new Speed Graphic and nowadays kindly Uncle George may very well sport a top-of-the-line Canon, Nikon or even an outrageously costly digital Hasselblad. We have all heard the expression "Let George do it"!

We all know, or at least should realize that CAMERAS don't make great photographs, great photographers do that. Cameras are only hardware- they don't come from the factory with brains, artistry, creativity or passion and compassion- they are merely tools. Cameras don't REALLY have intelligence, even the ones with (i) designations! Photographers who worry about who has the most expensive camera is worrying about the wrong issues.

As a professional photographer and business guy, I am interested ONLY in the folks who CAN afford my services and DO consider their wedding photography, at least, one of their priorities. I don't need to be the "star" of the wedding and in fact, I prefer to go virtually unnoticed for most of the day. I, however, don't want to be hired on as a necessary evil and go through the entire job "pulling teeth" for every shot. Most of the complaints I hear from wedding photographers about extremely difficult clients and disproportionately arduous jobs are usually caused by poor planning resulting in not having the clients and their photographers on the same page.

The point I am trying to arrive at? I will present this in some words of advice for the professional wedding photographers who worry about, hate, resent fear or want to eradicate all of the UNCLES WITH CAMERAS. If you are a true pro, theses folks are not your competition. Your real competitors are OTHER GOOD PROS who actually know what the are doing and are consistently providing their clients with top quality images and service. If the amateurs are actually impacting you business to any significant extent, you need to engage in a troubleshooting venture. This involves a great deal of introspection and that MAY be painful but it will pay off. REMEMBER- NO PAIN, NO GAIN! Ask yourself theses questions:

1. Is my work and service significantly better that the amateurs? If it's not, it's time to tune it up!

2. Is my work up to professional standards but is being somehow under-appreciated or unknown to my potential customer base? If this it is the case, it is time to examine your promotional and marketing program or the lack there of. Y'all gotta get out there and strut your stuff. Ain't nobody gonna knock your doors down. Online activities are not sufficient enough to generate a goodly amount of new business. Networking with other wedding industry vendors, participating in bridal shows and exhibits, and getting some publicity via you local newspapers and broadcast media can be a boon to you business and help to separate you form the amateurs and open up new markets.

3. Am I "barking up the wrong tree" or playing for the wrong audience? You may be appealing to the wrong market. It may be time for you to expand your service area, advertise via social media and other means in a more affluent or more art-appreciative marketplace.

Getting back to Bob's great and entertaining post: I don't have an "Uncle BOB. in my family or my vocabulary. After all, over 70% of my wedding photography is done in the ethnic and multicultural communities in my area. I have no real or imagined "uncles" with Anglo-Saxon names! I do have, however, lots of "Uncles" with names like Giuseppe, Gustav, Aristotle, Mohammad, Vladimir, Antonio, Hymen, Igor, Oscar, Fernando, and a whole bunch of Asian names that I can't even spell. A few of them even like to take pictures- God bless them!

Oh... and it so happens that all the BOBs or Roberts that I know and who happen to be professionals photographers are all great guys and masters of their art!

Kindest regards, Ed

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

Again, a tip of the hat to Uncle Ed.

As a matter of fact, rarely do I get to the place where I have a face to face meeting with a client if I'm not sure that I'm within the budget, or at least close enough to be considered. Learning to be honest and open on the phone before all that saves a lot of time.

In the times where people are just honest and say that they "just can't pay that much" I'm always understanding. I was there when I was young, and I know more and more people are paying for their own weddings instead of their parents.

A couple of things that I offer that I think are fairly unique.

First, I allow anyone to stay in contact with me, even if I'm not shooting the wedding, so they can ask for referrals, or even answer some wedding questions they may have about this or that. I love people, so I don't mind just trying to help where I can.
The other thing is that if they are close to the budget, I offer to let them "register for wedding photography" They may be a few hundred bucks shy of being able to fit me in, but if they register, and let the guests know that not only are they registered at (fill in the blank) they are also registered with me. They normally not only make up that few hundred bucks, but a few times, the whole contract was paid by friends and family. I do let them know that there is no guarantee that it will happen, and although I do have a very strict "pay in full before the wedding", I am willing to wait for the last amount (what we agree upon) until delivery. Normally, they get more than enough cash/checks in their gifts that they can pay me without worry. Only once did I try to deliver photos and set up a payment plan. 10 years later, and I still haven't received a dime of that. I consider that a lesson that I paid for, that even though it wasn't that much money, it was a VERY valuable lesson.

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Bob! Wedding registry! GREAT IDEA! After all, folks do that with all kinds of other gifts so why not do it with wedding photography!

Payment issues and policies have always been a "thing" in the business of wedding photography.

In my own case, my wedding prices have always been on the high end in my service area. Since I always ran a full service studio business where I offered many other commercial and portrait services, I decided to keep my wedding photography on a low volume/high quality basis- shall we say a bit more on the exclusive side. In my early career, I worked in a "wedding factory" operation where we had a large staff of shooters and did as many as 2,500 social functions annually. That was in the New York City Metropolitan Area, where that kind of volume potential existed. It was fun and exciting back in the day when I was a kid and a rookie shooter- the experience was pronominal, but in retrospect, it was quite the "rat race". The idea or goal was to kinda to try to book every wedding in town and have a wide range of price structures and in the end, it all averaged out! When you have 30 shooters- some full time and others part-time in the season- well I can write a book! I mean, the talent pool was pretty decent but we did have our horror stories.

So...generally speaking, a high price will or at leas should automatically vet or qualify the clients in that folks who can't afford the fess simply won't shop with you or simply go elsewhere once they know your prices. One might assume that I only get well-to-do rich clients. I only wish that life was that simple. Sometimes the rich folks got rich because they don't spend their money frivolously or easily and prefer to buy stuff on the cheap! Oftentimes the folks with more modest means are more sentimental and are very interested in a romantic, family oriented, emotional photographic coverage of their wedding. As the old saying goes; MONEY ISN'T EVERYTHING! OK, some of my wedding have the budget of a small country but the majority of my clients are regular folks who just like what I do and are willing to pay a fair price.

One rule of salesmanship is "BE EASY TO BUY FROM"! That means do not put up too many obstacles. So... I offer many methods of payment; cash, check, and I have all the major debit and credit card services. I used to have a finance company based plan but I don't like to encourage my clients to get into crazy interest rates. If they want to pay out their credit card company, that is their option. I too, need to be paid up in full by the wedding day. I will ask for a 50% retainer/deposit upon booking and the balance is due on or before the wedding day. Some couples prefer to make their payment in smaller increments, up until the wedding day- I can accommodate that. Many of my clients are still buying leather bound albums. On additional orders, after the wedding, my standard policy is to collect another 50% deposit on the re-order and C.O.D. on delivery- I do that purposely. In some of theses big orders, there are imported leather bound books, specialized picture framing and lots of custom work. Sometimes there are some inevitable production delays and I always like have the clients feel that I have NOT collected all the money and are ehen taking my time about giving them prompt service. In the last 25 years this policy has worked well- I have never had a nasty phone call form an impatient client and I have always been paid on time.

Also- nowadays, not many of my couple are all that young or poor- they are a bit older and more established. On a few of my Slavic weddings, there is still a custom where the band plays some Russian-like festive music and all the guests line up and present the couple with an ENVELOPE- sometimes just wads of CASH MONEY! Ain't notnin' wrong with that and it's heartening to know that I am sure to get paid!

Luckily enough, I never get any bum checks and bad debts from wedding clients. The few folks who ran into some financial problems along the way- it happens- my policy is, as long as folks are honest and forthcoming we can always work things out and we do!

Kindest regards, Ed