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.jpeg compression
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Jul 22, 2017 12:37:14   #
le boecere
 
tomad wrote:
As mentioned on another thread, I've tried to shoot RAW and I guess I'm just too dense to learn to use a RAW editor. I've played around extensively with several editors and I just can't seem to figure it out even though I'm a life long photographer and retired from 35 years of computer software engineering. I have a camera that takes both RAW and Jpeg and I can't edit the raw file to even get it to look as good as the same Jpeg. There are so many variables and any time I touch any of them I make the image worse than it was!
As mentioned on another thread, I've tried to shoo... (show quote)


I'm a computer dunderhead, yet (for me) one of the handiest little (rough) raw converters is the "RAW Conversion" feature in the menus of the Fujifilm X-cameras.

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Jul 22, 2017 12:57:15   #
PGHphoto Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
 
Bison Bud wrote:
Maybe a stupid question and I think that I know the answer, but I'm going to ask it here for clarification anyway. We all know that the .jpeg format compresses the picture data and that the data deleted is gone forever unless otherwise backed up with another type file that doesn't use compression. This can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you look at it. Anyway, this compression obviously takes place when the original edited RAW file is converted to .jpeg, but does this also happen every time I make a copy of the .jpeg file? If I do a simple file copy to move a .jpeg file from one location to another, do I get the complete original .jpeg data or is it compressed again even if the picture is unedited?
Maybe a stupid question and I think that I know th... (show quote)


Copying a file in Windows Explorer (or the MAC OS equivalent) will not add to the degradation , however, subsequent editing and saving the edit to the same name CAN - especially if you save at less than 100% file setting for a jpg. Each time you save after editing, the jpg process will try to add additional compression. If editing jpg's, best practice is to save a master copy that never gets edited and create a working copy using your operating system each time you want to edit. Never save a jpg from an editing program to the same file name.

This is true of MAC OS as well but not sure what the MAC OS version of Windows Explorer is .

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Jul 22, 2017 13:08:19   #
tturner Loc: Savannah Ga
 
http://thepioneerwoman.com/photography/why-i-went-back-to-jpeg/

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Jul 22, 2017 13:31:08   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
CatMarley wrote:
Nonsense! You must not have worked much with jpeg files. Contrast, color values, detail editing, and many other useful improvements can be done with jpegs. But the Fuji jpegs are usually so well done in camera, that I wouldn't change a thing!



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Jul 22, 2017 13:39:00   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
camerapapi wrote:
This has been a heated discussion and I cannot remember when JPEG vs RAW was discussed previously in the forum that so much controversy was generated. I have seen some insults and disrespect for others opinions.
I have always stated that I use both files depending on the subject. I know excellent professional photographers that only use JPEG files for wedding photography and they are doing very well. If you know what you are doing a JPEG image offers lots of manipulation in post.
Yes, RAW files record all the information present at the time of the exposure and from there on it is all in the hands and creativity of the photographer when using editing software. To use the file it has to be converted to a JPEG and we loose the 14 bits, the color gradations and the color space if it was a wide color space like ProPhoto. If we save the file in the RGB color space there is no commercial printer that I know off that will be able to print that file. When I shoot JPEG I save as a TIFF in case I do further manipulation of the image in the future. What I have done has worked very well for me.
No need to talk about copying a JPEG file, it has been discussed already and Jerry among others have proved that saving a JPEG several times do no do harm to the file. I cannot speak on behalf of others but I can say that I have been very satisfied with the quality of my JPEG images and many of my best enlargements have come from those files.
No matter if we shoot RAW or JPEG, that is for each individual photographer to decide. RAW files will end up as JPEG at one time or another and those files will be compressed and data will be lost.
Modern JPEG images have come a long way since I started photographing digitally back in 2002. The majority of us cannot see the changes that take place when a 12 or 14 bits image is converted to 8 bits nor we can see either the changes in colors that take place from one color space to the other. There are millions of colors involved.
To make this short, shoot the image file you prefer but do not tell me that there is no quality in an original JPEG because that is not true.
This has been a heated discussion and I cannot rem... (show quote)


.....could not agree more and very well stated !

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Jul 22, 2017 14:12:44   #
jackpinoh Loc: Kettering, OH 45419
 
If you open a JPRG file, change it (or change its name) and save it, the resulting file will be smaller and data will be lost again. If you copy a JPEG file, the copy will be identical to the original--no data is lost by copying.

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Jul 22, 2017 14:39:32   #
CatMarley Loc: North Carolina
 
le boecere wrote:
I'm a computer dunderhead, yet (for me) one of the handiest little (rough) raw converters is the "RAW Conversion" feature in the menus of the Fujifilm X-cameras.


Yes. I played with this - you can convert to all the different film simulants and change all kinds of exposure variables and see the results before saving the jpeg copy. I found the camera did just as good a job as I could, and I did not have to deal with mammoth files and slow computer response. Also I have an old computer with limited memory and am too lazy to deal with the new Windows OS on the new computer which is still in the box. Fuji rules!

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Jul 22, 2017 14:50:11   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
CatMarley wrote:
and I did not have to deal with mammoth files and slow computer response. Also I have an old computer with limited memory and am too lazy to deal with the new Windows OS on the new computer which is still in the box.


......me too

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Jul 22, 2017 15:17:30   #
whitewolfowner
 
CatMarley wrote:
But a raw file cannot be displayed or printed as is, therefore MUST be altered in order to act as forensic evidence. So can it be unbiased evidence if I alter it to my taste and sensibility. or do I leave it to an impartial, known algorithm to deliver a final image? I do not want my case to rest on how YOU think the crime scene should look. Much rather trust Fuji!



You see, you just don't understand here. A jpeg from the camera is altered form the software in the camera, so the photo is altered. A RAW file, unaltered and converted to a jpeg has not been "reworked", so it is still unaltered; it has just been converted to a different format. And your statement of "if I alter it too my taste and sensibility"; what do think the camera does when shot as a jpeg; it alters it to Fuji's taste and sensibility. Again, an altered photo; and if this is illegal (I am only taking others word for this, I have not done work for the police since the early 80's as I previously mentioned) then a jeg out the camera violates this law.

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Jul 22, 2017 15:29:59   #
tturner Loc: Savannah Ga
 
It's really sad that people can't admire and compliment each other for the beautiful work they do, without all this bickering about raw this, jpeg that, good photography is good photography regardless of how it's produced.

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Jul 22, 2017 16:43:58   #
CatMarley Loc: North Carolina
 
whitewolfowner wrote:
Again, an altered photo; and if this is illegal (I am only taking others word for this, I have not done work for the police since the early 80's as I previously mentioned) then a jeg out the camera violates this law.


No because forensic examiners can determine if any photoshopping has been done, and the camera does not make the kinds of material changes that a human photoshopper can. The camera manipulations are "standard" and only effect predictable and unessential changes to the data.

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Jul 22, 2017 16:45:24   #
whitewolfowner
 
CatMarley wrote:
No because forensic examiners can determine if any photoshopping has been done, and the camera does not make the kinds of material changes that a human photoshopper can. The camera manipulations are "standard" and only effect predictable and unessential changes to the data.


Wrong again, and again you prove you do not understand what's involved.

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Jul 22, 2017 16:45:46   #
CatMarley Loc: North Carolina
 
tturner wrote:
It's really sad that people can't admire and compliment each other for the beautiful work they do, without all this bickering about raw this, jpeg that, good photography is good photography regardless of how it's produced.


Yes the "RAW" gang really rags on those who do not worship at that altar, don't they!

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Jul 22, 2017 16:50:15   #
CatMarley Loc: North Carolina
 
whitewolfowner wrote:
Wrong again, and again you prove you do not understand what's involved.


LOL. I wrote programs in assembler when the operating system was Microsoft DOS. I built computers when Michael Dell was still selling them out of his dad's garage! I think I understand what's involved!

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Jul 22, 2017 16:52:24   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
CatMarley wrote:
No because forensic examiners can determine if any photoshopping has been done, and the camera does not make the kinds of material changes that a human photoshopper can. The camera manipulations are "standard" and only effect predictable and unessential changes to the data.




Cat, You get it!

If the genius took the time to read the material I posted from https://www.swgit.org/, he'd realize how absolutely wrong he is. SWGIT is pretty much the standard in the industry, and most, if not all law enforcement and forensic imaging professionals use their guidelines to set up their SOP.

There is no point in arguing with him, he is beyond ignorant on these and other matters - ignorance can be fix, what he's got is beyond fixing.

As you would say, "Bless his little heart!"

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