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Sensor Size Numbering???
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Jul 10, 2017 07:37:40   #
Fotomacher Loc: Toronto
 
And let us not forget that the number of pixels that the sensor maker packs onto a sensor is also a factor. My D70s and my D300s had the same size sensor, but the older model had 6MP while the newer one had 12MP. And in addition to a D810 I also have an E-M1 4/3 body. It has a smaller sensor that the D300s, but 16MP, more advanced processor technology and no AA filter. Even though the sensor is smaller than APS-C, it outperforms a D300s. Just sayin'

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Jul 10, 2017 07:56:45   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
SOLINA DAVE wrote:
I understand now that the sizing of a digital sensor somehow correlates with a video tube from back in the day. Until this moment, I didn't even know there was a correlation. I've been away! Lol
As I see it, a digital sensor that is 12.80 mm x 9.60 mm, and has been designated a 1" sensor, relates somehow to a 1" video tube. Very simply, if possible, what is that relationship? Similarities in information processing capability?
I also scanned Wikipedia, and saw that the CCD sensor format came into being in the early '70s, following the demise of video tubes. So they've been around quite a while. Are they obsolete, if you compare them to the latest sensor formats?
I understand now that the sizing of a digital sens... (show quote)


I think the 1" sensor size was/is just a con job on the part of the camera makers. They got caught, and although many still call it a 1" sensor, Sony now refers to it as a 1" Type sensor.

If all things were equal (they are not) more pixels means more detail while larger sensors equate to better low light performance and less noise.

No one spec makes or breaks a camera. The race to have the most pixels, to a large degree, is like the horsepower race between the auto manufacturers back in the '70s. Many cars had twice the power there was a need for, but is sounded good in the advertisements.

Before making a purchase read the published reviews from the major photography sites. Then ask real life, everyday users, what they think about it. The best way to get an idea if the reviewer knows what they are talking about, after reading the words look at the photos they post. No photos "might" mean they talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

Good luck!

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Jul 10, 2017 10:49:54   #
frankraney Loc: Clovis, Ca.
 
Sensor size affects field of view as compared to 35mm...Not quality or better as you ask. Search UHH and there are lots of articles on this....Or search the web....But I would search here first. Lots of smart people here.....It all depends what you want to do.......If you can afford a full size sensor, then get it and you won't have to worry about different sizes.

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Jul 10, 2017 11:42:02   #
John_F Loc: Minneapolis, MN
 
That 1/(number to one decimal in inches) is a hold over from the "optical format" of early television days. It is related to the sensor diagonal dimension.

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Jul 10, 2017 12:21:55   #
jeffhendy Loc: El Dorado Hills, CA
 
A strange relationship - the diagonal dimension of a rectangle 12.8 mm x 9.6 mm is 16 mm, or 0.63 inches. I think a con job is a better answer!

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Jul 10, 2017 13:08:50   #
Reinaldokool Loc: San Rafael, CA
 
SS319 wrote:
A larger sensor in terms of the number of pixels yields a larger print of museum quality. A larger sensor size in terms of the physical size of the sensor changes the field of vision of a given lens - if the diagonal of a sensor is twice as long as another sensor, the larger sensor will have twice the field of vision for a given lens. Practically, this means a 100-400 mm lens on a 1 inch sensor ( 24 X 36 mm) will act like a 160 - 640 mm lens on an 15 X 23 mm sensor.

A larger sensor in terms of larger physical area for each pixel yields a higher quality electronic function. the larger size pixel will have a higher signal to noise level which results in crisper, clearer pictures especially in darker areas of a photograph.

Here is a link to sensor overall size:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=imgres&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwic4-OJtfvUAhXE4SYKHVK-A-8QjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAPS-C&psig=AFQjCNGfkE3SGbVbo6QM3v-ouqEDND3jdw&ust=1499662708255896

The pixel size will be the total area of the sensor divided by the number of pixels in the sensor. My Canon T6i APS-c sensor (22.2mm X 14.8mm) has ~24 Million pixels, and a pixel size of 3.72µm square. The 5D IV has a full size sensor with 30 Million Pixels yet has a pixel size of 5.3 µm square or over twice the area of the pixels in my camera. That should work out to about four times the signal to noise ratio on the big sensor. ( of course, the 5D IV is about 4-6 times the price of the T6i too.
A larger sensor in terms of the number of pixels y... (show quote)


This is an excellent answer. The designation (4/3, aps-c, etc) come mostly from marketing people. Not entirely, of course, but mostly. They pulled off two scams as an industry. They made a tiny sensor and called it 1-inch. They justified that by comparing it to the old 1 inch vidicons we used in early TV broadcasting. (The one-inch vidicon had an OUTSIDE diameter of 1 inch.) In other words, as the cavalry Colonel used to say "horse-puckies."

The second scam was to call the 35mm sensor, "Full Frame." Full-frame compared to what? A Pentax 4x5? A Hassie digital back? Part of this was calling the aps-c a "crop sensor". The aps-c is full-frame. It doesn't throw away half the image. The 35mm sensor doesn't magically create a bigger print. (Not saying that the FF doesn't have some advantages under certain specific situations. But the aps-c has advantages too under other circumstances. The so-called 1 inch sensor has no advantages at any time.)

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Jul 10, 2017 13:17:13   #
therwol Loc: USA
 
Reinaldokool wrote:
The so-called 1 inch sensor has no advantages at any time.)


It does if you want a camera you can fit in a pocket. I own a Nikon D810, but it isn't suitable to carry it everywhere I go. I'm sorry to say that. It takes beautiful pictures. It's just too large, bulky and conspicuous (where there is a risk of theft) for some casual sightseeing with family members. I looked at alternatives very carefully. The pocket requirement (mine) ruled out many fine cameras with larger sensors, either because of interchangeable lenses sticking out or viewfinders sticking up. I bought a Canon G7X Mark II. I have no complaints.

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Jul 10, 2017 13:54:39   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
therwol wrote:
It does if you want a camera you can fit in a pocket. I own a Nikon D810, but it isn't suitable to carry it everywhere I go. I'm sorry to say that. It takes beautiful pictures. It's just too large, bulky and conspicuous (where there is a risk of theft) for some casual sightseeing with family members. I looked at alternatives very carefully. The pocket requirement (mine) ruled out many fine cameras with larger sensors, either because of interchangeable lenses sticking out or viewfinders sticking up. I bought a Canon G7X Mark II. I have no complaints.
It does if you want a camera you can fit in a pock... (show quote)


I bought a little Panasonic for the same reason. Even just running up to the store I throw it in the console, just in case.

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Jul 10, 2017 14:38:35   #
Kuzano
 
therwol wrote:
Sensor size also equates to camera size. If you want something to put in your pocket, you probably won't get anything larger than a 1" sensor. The lenses for cameras with larger sensors tend to be larger as well. Full frame cameras (24x36mm or close) tend to be large, and the lenses even larger. What are you willing to carry around, and to some extent, how much are you willing to spend for "better" pictures? Of course, they're better under scrutiny, but I've seen pictures taken with smaller cameras that are fantastic, including Micro 4/3. (Check out the Olympus models.)
Sensor size also equates to camera size. If you w... (show quote)


If you can get a 1" sensor camera in your pocket.... you have been taking your shirts and/or jeans to "Omar the Tentmaker" and having the pockets enlarged, methinks!

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Jul 10, 2017 15:00:31   #
therwol Loc: USA
 
Kuzano wrote:
If you can get a 1" sensor camera in your pocket.... you have been taking your shirts and/or jeans to "Omar the Tentmaker" and having the pockets enlarged, methinks!


My Canon G7X Mark II fits comfortably in regular pants pockets. I'm 65, and my days of wearing tight jeans are over. The G9X should fit in a shirt pocket. I didn't buy that because of the more limited zoom range. Both of these cameras have 1 inch sensors, retractable lenses, and no separate viewfinder. That's how they can fit in a pocket.

https://www.amazon.com/Canon-PowerShot-G7-Mark-Black/dp/B01BV14OXA

https://www.amazon.com/Canon-PowerShot-Digital-Camera-Bluetooth/dp/B01N9MCH0E/ref=dp_ob_title_ce

G9X is also available in black.

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Jul 10, 2017 15:27:30   #
fantom Loc: Colorado
 
SOLINA DAVE wrote:
This will no doubt be a very elementary subject for most of you, but I'm just learning and need a little help with details. I'll be asking a lot of questions in the future so please bear with me if you don't mind.
How is the numbering, used to identify a sensor's size, interpreted? For example: 1/2.3" (6.17 x 4.55 mm), 2/3" (8.80 x 6.60 mm), 1" (12.80 x 9.60 mm) etc. etc. I can see that the measurements in brackets, in millimeters, is the actual length by width size of the sensor. But how do you read, and interpret, 1/2.3", 2/3", 1" etc., and how do those numbers equate to anything?
Also, it would appear that the bigger the sensor, the better the photo. So, based on that premise, would that be a major factor to consider when purchasing a camera? If you purchase a camera that is going to max out your camera budget, should you opt for the one with the biggest sensor? And are there combinations of features, that you can apply to a camera, that would compensate for a lack of sensor size, and even create a camera that would produce higher quality photos, using a smaller sensor?

Any details would help.......Thanks.....Dave
This will no doubt be a very elementary subject fo... (show quote)


The system for characterizing sensor sizes was developed by the IRS and then translated into Japanese by an Eskimo. It was them simplified and translated back into English by a consortium of Canon, Nikon and Youngno engineers and the entire system is administered by Comcast customer service.

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Jul 10, 2017 15:40:40   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
fantom wrote:
The system for characterizing sensor sizes was developed by the IRS and then translated into Japanese by an Eskimo. It was them simplified and translated back into English by a consortium of Canon, Nikon and Youngno engineers and the entire system is administered by Comcast customer service.


I'm sure it is the administrator that screwed it up!

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Jul 10, 2017 17:44:51   #
SOLINA DAVE
 
BJW wrote:
Without getting scientific, here's how I understand this topic:
Light is the most essential ingredient of all images.There should be no question that a larger sensor contains more pixels than a smaller sensor. With more pixels, the sensor is physically capable of collecting more units of light (photons). With more light, you get a better image.

So why do we see such superb image quality with the smaller crop, MFT or iPhone sensors?

Why are there some smaller sensor cameras that have now earned "professional" status (e.g. Nikon D500) due to their superb performance in low light conditions?

One answer, IMO, is the technological advances of the specific camera and in particular how efficiently the pixels absorb and process the amount and quality of light that enters through the lens. Thus, sensor technology has been able to prove once again, the truism that "less is more". Sometimes...

Add to the improvements in sensor technology yet other advances and improvements such as in body and in lens image stabilization, lens quality, auto focus, etc., and we have lots of material for lively and stimulating discussion within our UHH family. But none of the advances can replace the fundamental elements of the exposure triangle, all of which address and affect one subject: light the quintessential ingredient of photography.
So, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

BJW
Without getting scientific, here's how I understan... (show quote)


Very good!! An excellent analogy indeed. And you have cast a great deal of light on the subject. At least for me, you certainly have.

Thank you..............Dave

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Jul 10, 2017 19:47:48   #
Boris77
 
SOLINA DAVE wrote:
This will no doubt be a very elementary subject for most of you, but I'm just learning and need a little help with details. I'll be asking a lot of questions in the future so please bear with me if you don't mind.
How is the numbering, used to identify a sensor's size, interpreted? For example: 1/2.3" (6.17 x 4.55 mm), 2/3" (8.80 x 6.60 mm), 1" (12.80 x 9.60 mm) etc. etc. I can see that the measurements in brackets, in millimeters, is the actual length by width size of the sensor. But how do you read, and interpret, 1/2.3", 2/3", 1" etc., and how do those numbers equate to anything?
Also, it would appear that the bigger the sensor, the better the photo. So, based on that premise, would that be a major factor to consider when purchasing a camera? If you purchase a camera that is going to max out your camera budget, should you opt for the one with the biggest sensor? And are there combinations of features, that you can apply to a camera, that would compensate for a lack of sensor size, and even create a camera that would produce higher quality photos, using a smaller sensor?

Any details would help.......Thanks.....Dave
This will no doubt be a very elementary subject fo... (show quote)


All of the sensor sizes have a story explaining how they were named. Not worth knowing unless you have a photographic memory or will be taking a quiz. Obvious thing is to find a visual chart you like and put it on your computer desktop, cell phone, or make a print - whatever is easy to find.
As others have said, chose a category of cameras based on what you want it to do. I love DPReview for easy comparisons, including lists of cameras designed for similar purposes. (I include the high priced ones just to see what I am giving up because of cost.) I have no personal acquaintances that bought a camera to get the biggest sensor and/or highest pixel count within their budget. That should be relative to how big you want to project the image, and is just part of what makes a "sharp" picture. The quality and quickness of the focusing system has always been my number one consideration - because I am a candid snap shooter! Weight is my new concern since passing 70.
Boris

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Jul 10, 2017 20:16:17   #
MtnMan Loc: ID
 
BebuLamar wrote:
The inch size is the dimension of the outer diameter of video tube so the actual diagonal dimension of say a 1" sensor is less than 1". The same goes for all the sensor size based on inch. These sizes used back in the days when video cameras used tube as imaging sensor.


Much less...half. It is perhaps the most misleading designator.

I am surprised there hasn't been a class action lawsuit on it as there was with tv screen sizes.

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