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Jul 3, 2017 19:11:31   #
jaysnave Loc: Central Ohio
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
Hey Tim!

I love the word "apprentice"! That's exactly how I started my career in professional photography. It's very best education and experience you can get- if you can get it. I'ts too bad that there is not a formal apprenticeship program in photography- like they have in some of the European countries. When I started out in New York City, however, there was kind of a tradition or pecking order whereby the rookies would learn form the veterans. I was fortunate to have a formal academic education in photography. At one point in my life I though of photographic sciences as a career so after my military service was over, via the GI bill, I went to Rochester and earned degree in photographic technology- chemistry, optics and that kinda stuff. At that time the applied photography course was new but I managed to take in some of those classes as well. I still take in workshops and seminars whenever I get the chance. While I was apprenticing, my fist boss and mentor sent some of us to the Winona- the PP of A School in Indiana. Those courses were taught by working master photographers. All the schooling was great but I have to admit that my early on-the-job training is where I garnered must of my practical day to day knowledge- the stuff that you just can't get in classrooms or books. This especially apples to wedding photography and portraiture where people skills and just as important as technical savvy. If if you need to travel in order to work with an experienced shooter- believe me, it's a good investment.

In the wedding photography business, the money issues are funny! Firstly, let me tell you that back in the day, as a rookie, I got all the low-priced wedding jobs at the studio. I cut my teeth shooting wedding for folks that did not have allot of money to spend. Working for the so-called "poor folks" gave me some great perspective on life and work. I found that if people are resourceful and willing to put some food and drink to together and create their own decor and entertainment, they can pull off some festive and beautiful weddings. I learned that hard working folks appreciate other hard working folks. Most importantly, I learned that every bride and groom and their families, deserved my best efforts no matter how modest their weddings are.

So...my point it that I have nothing against folks how can't spend a whole lot of money on their wedding photography. Oftentimes, however, potential customers will balk at the price of photography and claim that the don't have the money to sped. Then we go to the wedding and realize that they are spending a fortune on food, booze and all the trimmings. If the son'r prioritize their photography, I can understand that but oftentimes this attitude is the local; photographer fault in that the don't promote their product and services and may some photographers simply under price their own services and create bad buying habits in their own service area. In other words, the money is there but the clients are spending it elsewhere!

Also, nowadays, what with social media, the Internet and advertising in wedding publications and online sites, you are not restricted to any particular neighborhood. Good word of mouth recommendation can bring you work in a significantly wider market.

Keep up the good work and keep on learning.
Hey Tim! br br I love the word "apprentice&q... (show quote)

Woody is not helping ...
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/personalfinance/actor-woody-harrelsons-wedding-cost-dollar500—and-yours-can-too/ar-BBDx1lG?ocid=fbmsnmoney

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Jul 3, 2017 20:22:57   #
jaysnave Loc: Central Ohio
 
Special Things. That is what I call them anyway. Things like wedding shoes, flowers, and rings of course. I am going to post a pic from a previous wedding for your critique, however I would love to hear how y'all approach these special things and what techniques you use. Most of the time I don't do enough planning for this aspect and just kind of survey the things and the environment and try to come up with something special for them. Actually, if my daughter is with me I kind of put her in charge of the creative arrangements.

The pic I am posting consists of the wedding shoes and flowers. We started walking around the church looking for some stained glass to be the background. We ended up putting them on the floor with a stained glass window at the end of the hallway. I kept getting lower and lower until I was laying flat on the floor. I used an on camera lite scoop (off camera probably would have been better). Probably at F4 or thereabouts. I think it turned out well although this couple was tough to get feedback on anything. The flowers may be too hot and the goldish background may be too gold. I also wish I would have done something more symmetric with the laces.


(Download)

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Jul 4, 2017 23:17:25   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
Hey, Jay!

Nice detail shot! In my own method, I shoot for wedding albums and slide shows like cinematographers shoot movies, that is, using certain detail shots to set the scene for the next sequence of images. I like your shot because it sets the scene, the venue of the wedding ceremony with the stained glass widow in the background and components of the bride's attire as the subject. The flowers have some cold (blue) tones which contrasts nicely against the warm tones in the background. Nice selective focus as well.

Here are some suggestions for improvement: The image needs more density. This is a problem that goes back to the film days where most color labs tended to print on the lighter side. When you would PRINT DOWN to maximize detail in the highlights, color correction becomes more critical and with portraits, more blemishes or irregularities in the skin tend to show up, thus requiring retouching. Thing is, both negatives and digital files, usually have significantly more INFORMATION on them that never gets onto the final print or screen image.This often results in images with less texture, depth and viewer impact. Nowadays, most of our editing software allows us to precisely control density and also enables "custom printing controls whereby we can see the results immediately on our monitor screens. In the olden days, this would require many test prints and re-makes. If certain images should require retouching of blemishes, there are so many useful plug-ins that replace the need for difficult manual negative and positive retouching. We can therefore, easy "print down", so to speak and achieve images with beautifully saturated colors, rich skin tones s and incredible textures.

Just as a side note- When I judge at professional print competitions I find that many of the prints that don't quite make the grade, fail because of poor printing or editing techniques. The composition, lighting, the creative concept and the "information" is all there but never made it to the final image.

I took the liberty of "custom printing" your shot- printed down and burned in the background.
I am not sure how it will show up on your monitor but hopefully you will get the idea and take a crack at editing.

Shoes: I'll put on my commercial photographer's hat for a moment. To show the design of a shoe it is best to show the outside of the shoe rather than the front or the part where the arch curves inward. Of course, you can show a pair with each shoe at a different orientation or angle to suit the design of your shot and the position of the other props. Laces or buckles should be carefully styled.

I hop you will find this information useful.




(Download)

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Jul 5, 2017 14:39:05   #
bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana
 
Sorry for not getting back until now Jay.
First, I like the image. I try to include shots like this with every wedding, so I can use them in the album. Never had anyone actually order a print for the wall, but if you use it as background on the page, and have other prints placed around it, negative space isn't an issue (because it will have some other detail shots in those areas)

The gold is a matter of taste, I think personally, I might back it off a bit, or since I shoot raw, just use the eyedropper tool on the shoes, then fine tune.

I do think that I would consider using the adjustment brush and bring down the saturation just a touch in the flowers. I do like saturated colors sometimes, but I think they are a little distracting.

I love LOVE the stained glass, and think it really makes for a beautiful shot.

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Jul 5, 2017 14:47:06   #
bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana
 
Tim Stapp wrote:
BK, looking forward to more shots from both weddings. I hope that someday I can be good enough to be considered as an apprentice to the fine photographers here.

In my neck of the woods, a $500 package is considered extravagant. Drive an hour in any direction and they start at $5,000. I may have to move.


Tim never gives himself enough credit. He's shot with me for 4 weddings and a couple of events now. He's climbed up barn rafters to get unique angles, (much more aerodynamic than me) and has really captured some outstanding artistic shots, as well as bailing me out with helping with formals this last time. We literally had minutes to get everything knocked out, so we broke up the wedding party and families into groups, and were sending people back and forth to be in this group or that.

It was pretty unique, a little frustrating, but a TON of fun, and Tim did his usual outstanding job. Even captured some video that nobody expected, that the couple was absolutely beside themselves with joy over it.

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Jul 5, 2017 16:51:40   #
bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana
 
This is another one of my favorites. It pretty much fits the bride's personality to a "T."

This wasn't from the last wedding, but the one before that. I am working on their album and stumbled on this gem. I think I may tone down the highlights a touch, but will need to do a sample print first.

Anyway, the story with this one is that the bridesmaid wanted a photo done with her and the groom, and Brittany showed that Jake was now "her man." You can get a feel for the personality of these people, it was a lot of fun.

Taken at my daughter's reception hall. OCF camera left. Not cropped yet, this is just the raw images converted to JPEG. I don't crop until I know how I'm going to use the image.



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Jul 5, 2017 17:02:09   #
jaysnave Loc: Central Ohio
 
Thanks Ed & Bob.

Ed, I appreciate the "print down" concept but not sure I can get my head around it. Maybe it is because I sadly have not created prints or albums for any of my clients. I aspire to, but nobody wants wants them and or I am not a good enough salesman. I have been thinking of creating an album of my favorite wedding images to have as a promo book, but have not done that yet.

Bob, I think I did bring the gold down for the deliverable photos. Once WB is good in Lightroom I usually go to Photoshop for hue/saturation or selective color for specific adjustments.

Everyone ... lets see some of your detail shots & how you accomplish them. Do you use a macro lens? Modifiers? I saw a great image recently where they used a snoot on the rings controlling light on the rings, but darkness around them. I have a couple of pieces of acrylic sheets that I may use as a reflective surface.

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Jul 5, 2017 17:30:50   #
Tim Stapp Loc: Mid Mitten
 
Jay, be careful with any reflective surface. Last wedding with BK; while attempting to get detailed ring shots, grand piano, lobby of the hotel: the surface appeared to the eye to be perfect. Camera sensor saw differently.

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Jul 5, 2017 17:56:07   #
jaysnave Loc: Central Ohio
 
Tim Stapp wrote:
Jay, be careful with any reflective surface. Last wedding with BK; while attempting to get detailed ring shots, grand piano, lobby of the hotel: the surface appeared to the eye to be perfect. Camera sensor saw differently.


What do you mean, no refection?

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Jul 5, 2017 19:33:09   #
Tim Stapp Loc: Mid Mitten
 
dirty. very, very dirty. Grabbed a napkin from a dining table close by and wiped everything down. Still, because of the french polished surface of the Yamaha grand, every pore of the wood beneath the surface showed. It was amazing what the human eye "overlooks" that the camera sees.

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Jul 5, 2017 20:01:38   #
jaysnave Loc: Central Ohio
 
Tim Stapp wrote:
dirty. very, very dirty. Grabbed a napkin from a dining table close by and wiped everything down. Still, because of the french polished surface of the Yamaha grand, every pore of the wood beneath the surface showed. It was amazing what the human eye "overlooks" that the camera sees.


Gotcha

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Jul 5, 2017 20:18:35   #
jaysnave Loc: Central Ohio
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
Hey, Jay!

Nice detail shot! In my own method, I shoot for wedding albums and slide shows like cinematographers shoot movies, that is, using certain detail shots to set the scene for the next sequence of images. I like your shot because it sets the scene, the venue of the wedding ceremony with the stained glass widow in the background and components of the bride's attire as the subject. The flowers have some cold (blue) tones which contrasts nicely against the warm tones in the background. Nice selective focus as well.

Here are some suggestions for improvement: The image needs more density. This is a problem that goes back to the film days where most color labs tended to print on the lighter side. When you would PRINT DOWN to maximize detail in the highlights, color correction becomes more critical and with portraits, more blemishes or irregularities in the skin tend to show up, thus requiring retouching. Thing is, both negatives and digital files, usually have significantly more INFORMATION on them that never gets onto the final print or screen image.This often results in images with less texture, depth and viewer impact. Nowadays, most of our editing software allows us to precisely control density and also enables "custom printing controls whereby we can see the results immediately on our monitor screens. In the olden days, this would require many test prints and re-makes. If certain images should require retouching of blemishes, there are so many useful plug-ins that replace the need for difficult manual negative and positive retouching. We can therefore, easy "print down", so to speak and achieve images with beautifully saturated colors, rich skin tones s and incredible textures.

Just as a side note- When I judge at professional print competitions I find that many of the prints that don't quite make the grade, fail because of poor printing or editing techniques. The composition, lighting, the creative concept and the "information" is all there but never made it to the final image.

I took the liberty of "custom printing" your shot- printed down and burned in the background.
I am not sure how it will show up on your monitor but hopefully you will get the idea and take a crack at editing.

Shoes: I'll put on my commercial photographer's hat for a moment. To show the design of a shoe it is best to show the outside of the shoe rather than the front or the part where the arch curves inward. Of course, you can show a pair with each shoe at a different orientation or angle to suit the design of your shot and the position of the other props. Laces or buckles should be carefully styled.

I hop you will find this information useful.
Hey, Jay! br br Nice detail shot! In my own meth... (show quote)


Ed, one of the dress pics from the same wedding. More print down detail?


(Download)

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Jul 5, 2017 20:29:16   #
jaysnave Loc: Central Ohio
 
bkyser wrote:
This is another one of my favorites. It pretty much fits the bride's personality to a "T."

This wasn't from the last wedding, but the one before that. I am working on their album and stumbled on this gem. I think I may tone down the highlights a touch, but will need to do a sample print first.

Anyway, the story with this one is that the bridesmaid wanted a photo done with her and the groom, and Brittany showed that Jake was now "her man." You can get a feel for the personality of these people, it was a lot of fun.

Taken at my daughter's reception hall. OCF camera left. Not cropped yet, this is just the raw images converted to JPEG. I don't crop until I know how I'm going to use the image.
This is another one of my favorites. It pretty m... (show quote)


This wasn't one of your weddings where the police were called was it? I should join you and Tim sometime for the entertainment value! Anyway, yes this is a good candid. Of course only to them and not the outside viewer because you have to know the back story to get it. Maybe look good in the album cropped at waist high?



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Jul 5, 2017 21:41:07   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
Hi, Jay!

Being an old-time darkroom printer, I revert to the term "printing down". however, the same technique applies to prints, transparencies and screen or projected images. It's just a matter of retaining detail, especially in the highlights and in the fabrics of bridal gowns. The degree of density or saturation is a matter of taste and can be easily customized during editing.

Another important consideration in rendering fine detail detail in white and pastel gowns is the lightning. If the light skims across the textured, embroidered or detailed part of the fabric, rather than striking it directly, the raw files will have intrinsic detail, providing the exposure is correct. When there is enough intrinsic detail in the dress, printing down or burning in will accentuate it. IF the the whites are "burned out" due to serious overexposure or light striking the fabric at a disadvantageous angle of incidence, printing down or even excessive burning in will not provide detail that is not there and will only turn the vacant whites into a kind of dirty gray.

You shot has the right kinda lighting. All I had to do is print down a bit (Simpy reduce brightness slightly) and just a bit of burning in on the dress. I also corrected the vertical perspective and got rid of the electrical outlet or what looked like a light switch or thermostat on the far wall.

One bit of technical theory that I encourage all photographers to study is ANGLE OF INCIDENCE. The angle of incidence is equal to the angle of reflection. Understanding this aspect of lighting helps us bring out detail in fabrics and flowers, create sparkling speculator highlights in portraits and is essential in photographing shiny or highly polished articles such as wedding rings. Once master, this kinda lighting technique can be applied, not only to studio conditions or with portrait formal setups at weddings, but with available light as well.
I will try to write a more detailed post with some illustrations and diagrams.

As for detail shots, macro work and shinny metallic objects, I am trying to prepare a post on LIGHT FIELD AND DARK FIELD photography techniques. Stand by! It sound complex but again, once the method is grasped, it can be done on the fly with available light or simple gear. In some cases all you need is a small white reflector!


(Download)

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Jul 5, 2017 21:51:28   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
Oh- I did that edit on my phone! It looked great on the small screen but too dark on my computer. So here's another version. Just to show how you can adjust the tonality and still retain detail.


(Download)

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