Formals - rushed Portraits
Jun 21, 2017 18:40:36 #
Formals - rushed Portraits
This might be better broken up into several sections; posing-lighting-camera angles-guest control-and stress :)
I'd like to bring my quality of the Formals to a higher level, And see what you'all strive for, and how you set up and pre-think.
I usually have time to set up lights before the ceremony, generally do Formals at the front of the church, but have done some outside... usually have 20min time frame for formals and family, I really struggle with posing - and groups - But really want the bride and groom to shine.
I usually mix the ambient light in the background with off camera flash(even outside). I can usually get get a loop light on the bride w/fill on the groom. (I concentrate on the bride-don't blow out the dress). With hands showing I try to emphasize the rings, otherwise, hide the hands (flowers do good). My veils don't really look good, and I struggle with camera angles - esp full length.
Head and shoulders usually around 135-200mm f/4 at eye level, full length 70mm f/5.6 at waist level.
On groups I resort to 2 lights either side of camera, still mix with ambient, usually 1 - 1 ⅔ under. Higher aperture (f/5.6-8.0)..2-3 shots to catch the winkers. Camera at waist level - usually 70mm - many times leaving lots to crop to help with DOF. Hands front or behind.
I'm usually limited to shutter speed 1/160, and rarely go as high as ISO 400...And I should add, expressions get lost while I struggle with the gear.
What do you use? Hair and accent lights? Ignore the ambient? Do you have any 'go to poses' or camera angles? How do you set-up the lighting, without a modeling light? Thanks in advance!
This might be better broken up into several sections; posing-lighting-camera angles-guest control-and stress :)
I'd like to bring my quality of the Formals to a higher level, And see what you'all strive for, and how you set up and pre-think.
I usually have time to set up lights before the ceremony, generally do Formals at the front of the church, but have done some outside... usually have 20min time frame for formals and family, I really struggle with posing - and groups - But really want the bride and groom to shine.
I usually mix the ambient light in the background with off camera flash(even outside). I can usually get get a loop light on the bride w/fill on the groom. (I concentrate on the bride-don't blow out the dress). With hands showing I try to emphasize the rings, otherwise, hide the hands (flowers do good). My veils don't really look good, and I struggle with camera angles - esp full length.
Head and shoulders usually around 135-200mm f/4 at eye level, full length 70mm f/5.6 at waist level.
On groups I resort to 2 lights either side of camera, still mix with ambient, usually 1 - 1 ⅔ under. Higher aperture (f/5.6-8.0)..2-3 shots to catch the winkers. Camera at waist level - usually 70mm - many times leaving lots to crop to help with DOF. Hands front or behind.
I'm usually limited to shutter speed 1/160, and rarely go as high as ISO 400...And I should add, expressions get lost while I struggle with the gear.
What do you use? Hair and accent lights? Ignore the ambient? Do you have any 'go to poses' or camera angles? How do you set-up the lighting, without a modeling light? Thanks in advance!
Jun 21, 2017 23:52:52 #
Hey! Thanks the questions! I'll try to squeeze in as much as I can to address all of your issues. It's a bit difficult to get into posing correction without some examples of what you have done but I'll go with what you have explained.
Time and stress: I don't know the total time span format of the wedding you are covering bit I would suggest that you try to encourage your bridal parties to allow for more time for their formal session- 20 minutes is a bit slim! Rushing increases the stress factor, even for the more experienced shooters. If, of course you can do the bride's portraits and formals, prior to the ceremony, it will cut down on you workload after the church service. I would advise you to take the bridal part to a more remote and undisclosed location rather that the front of the church interior- 2 reasons. I oftentimes find that the altar area of the church can be cluttered with religious artifacts, candelabra, and other objects that ca appear to be "growing out of you subject's heads", cause flash-back reflections and other distractions. At a different location you will not have to contend with guest control, thus reducing the stress level.
Many of the same issues can be prevalent at the immediate exterior of the church although a garden, church yard or grotto on the church property may be more aesthetically pleasing. You may still have a crowed control problem.
Posing method: I use a system called FLOWING POSING. This helps with efficiency, especially when you are working in a very restricted timeframe. You need to set up the bride and groom in a basic full-length pose and build the required groups around them; parents, extended family bridal party etc. As each group is completed you can send the participants on to the reception. At the end of the group session you are left with the couple alone. Once the couple is isolated you can moving and out for full-lengths, 3/4 views and closeups. You can change your camera position and get full face, 2/3 qne profile views- sometimes without moving the couple around as long as the background remains clean and out of focus. It only takes a few minutes to move the groom in and out for separate and combined portraits. This system can work with both flash and natural light- indoors and out of doors as well.
Adjusting speedlights, without modeling lights, to achieve acceptable portrait studio-like effects is an instinctive skill set based on your knowledge of basic portrait lighting. It is somewhat difficult to achieve an exact replication of specific lightings but you can come fairly close with practice. The basic concept is not to attempt very extreme lighting pattern or ratios so that minor miscalculations will not lead to bad shadows that wash down the faces of your subjects or obscure the eyes in dark shadow. If you mai light is positioned between 20 and 45 degrees from the camera/subject axis and somewhat higher than you subject's eye levee, you should get the "loop" ligh you alluded to. A lighting ratio of 1:2 or 1:3 is a safe bet. Higher ratios for pronounced low-key effect requires more practice and precise placement. Yet another method is to use you on camera light as a main source and place you remote light at about 135 degrees to the camera/subject axis. This can serve as a kicker light/ /veil light/hair light and adds quite a bit of dimension to your individual and group portraits.
Placing a light on either side of you larger groups will result in even lighting but it als may cause "cross-lighting" which sometimes looks flat and artificial. A main light at about 20-25 degrees and a fill light on the camera will produce a more pleasing lighting. If the space is available, the aforementioned kicker system will work well too.
To retain detail in the bride's gown, accurate exposure is on part of the method. Another important part of the method, that is often overlooked, is where the bride is placed in relation to the main light source. You should pose the bride so that her body is facing slightly away from the direction of the main light and her head is gently turned into the lighting pattern. This is a nice feminine pose and the light will skim over the lace, embroidery, details pleats etc of the fabric and bring up the texture. This is based on the ANGLE OF INCIDENCE theory.
Rings: You don't have to show everything at once in you basic forma poses. You can pse the hand and the bouquet in the most graceful manner. You can do a separate pose of the couple looking at their rings and some detail closeups of the hands and rings.
Veils and trains should be placed and draped carefully. The should be arranged as the designer intended for them to be presented. Some photographer pull the train out in front of the dress- this is bad form. It should be draped in back of the bride where it belongs, To feature the train, you do a back/profile shot. The veil should be carefully placed- sometimes it needs to be "puffed out" or just allowed to drape smoothly. Depending on the volume of fabric and the design, it can be draped symmetrically or pulled to one side. In a profile view, it should be tucked back so that it does no intersect with the profile line or the chin/jaw line.
Go-to poses! YES! OF COURSE! It is important to have standard, easy to hold, comfortable, natural and graceful poses that can be executed quickly, flatter the subjects and show off the lines of the wedding dresses. To illustrate this, I will have to prepare another thread with the basic posing method. All good poses start with the proper placement of the feet, the legs and the distribution of body weight that enables easy pivoting. One the proper posture is established, everything falls into place. This is very precise but it is not torturous or stiff.
It is better to fill the frame in proportion to the aspect ration of the final image.For groups, it is best to use a normal lens or zoom setting and not depend of massive cropping. Working at f/5.6 or f/'8 will provide you with more depth of field with a working distance between 10 and 15 feet, depending on the size of the group.
If you are having difficulty with folks blinking, you might consider working the groups with the camera on a tripod. I compose and focus and then work from just above the camera. I can talk to the subjects and by not peering through the viewfinder, I can better observe their peak expression and make sure all their eyes are open. Rather than count, I might crack a joke and say "when I take this shot.... I EXPOSE...and then continue shooting. If they are not expecting or anticipating the flash or the click, they won't flinch and their expressions will be more natural. I will do a few shot of everyone looking at the camera and a few looking at each other and mixing it up- shaking hands, kissing and hugging, high fiving, back slapping and waving- theses are fun a natural images and this also helps with incessant blinkers. Once everyone is lined up all of this takes only a few seconds!
I hope this helps for now and I will start working on a posing thread.
Keep the questions coming.
Kindest regards, Ed
Time and stress: I don't know the total time span format of the wedding you are covering bit I would suggest that you try to encourage your bridal parties to allow for more time for their formal session- 20 minutes is a bit slim! Rushing increases the stress factor, even for the more experienced shooters. If, of course you can do the bride's portraits and formals, prior to the ceremony, it will cut down on you workload after the church service. I would advise you to take the bridal part to a more remote and undisclosed location rather that the front of the church interior- 2 reasons. I oftentimes find that the altar area of the church can be cluttered with religious artifacts, candelabra, and other objects that ca appear to be "growing out of you subject's heads", cause flash-back reflections and other distractions. At a different location you will not have to contend with guest control, thus reducing the stress level.
Many of the same issues can be prevalent at the immediate exterior of the church although a garden, church yard or grotto on the church property may be more aesthetically pleasing. You may still have a crowed control problem.
Posing method: I use a system called FLOWING POSING. This helps with efficiency, especially when you are working in a very restricted timeframe. You need to set up the bride and groom in a basic full-length pose and build the required groups around them; parents, extended family bridal party etc. As each group is completed you can send the participants on to the reception. At the end of the group session you are left with the couple alone. Once the couple is isolated you can moving and out for full-lengths, 3/4 views and closeups. You can change your camera position and get full face, 2/3 qne profile views- sometimes without moving the couple around as long as the background remains clean and out of focus. It only takes a few minutes to move the groom in and out for separate and combined portraits. This system can work with both flash and natural light- indoors and out of doors as well.
Adjusting speedlights, without modeling lights, to achieve acceptable portrait studio-like effects is an instinctive skill set based on your knowledge of basic portrait lighting. It is somewhat difficult to achieve an exact replication of specific lightings but you can come fairly close with practice. The basic concept is not to attempt very extreme lighting pattern or ratios so that minor miscalculations will not lead to bad shadows that wash down the faces of your subjects or obscure the eyes in dark shadow. If you mai light is positioned between 20 and 45 degrees from the camera/subject axis and somewhat higher than you subject's eye levee, you should get the "loop" ligh you alluded to. A lighting ratio of 1:2 or 1:3 is a safe bet. Higher ratios for pronounced low-key effect requires more practice and precise placement. Yet another method is to use you on camera light as a main source and place you remote light at about 135 degrees to the camera/subject axis. This can serve as a kicker light/ /veil light/hair light and adds quite a bit of dimension to your individual and group portraits.
Placing a light on either side of you larger groups will result in even lighting but it als may cause "cross-lighting" which sometimes looks flat and artificial. A main light at about 20-25 degrees and a fill light on the camera will produce a more pleasing lighting. If the space is available, the aforementioned kicker system will work well too.
To retain detail in the bride's gown, accurate exposure is on part of the method. Another important part of the method, that is often overlooked, is where the bride is placed in relation to the main light source. You should pose the bride so that her body is facing slightly away from the direction of the main light and her head is gently turned into the lighting pattern. This is a nice feminine pose and the light will skim over the lace, embroidery, details pleats etc of the fabric and bring up the texture. This is based on the ANGLE OF INCIDENCE theory.
Rings: You don't have to show everything at once in you basic forma poses. You can pse the hand and the bouquet in the most graceful manner. You can do a separate pose of the couple looking at their rings and some detail closeups of the hands and rings.
Veils and trains should be placed and draped carefully. The should be arranged as the designer intended for them to be presented. Some photographer pull the train out in front of the dress- this is bad form. It should be draped in back of the bride where it belongs, To feature the train, you do a back/profile shot. The veil should be carefully placed- sometimes it needs to be "puffed out" or just allowed to drape smoothly. Depending on the volume of fabric and the design, it can be draped symmetrically or pulled to one side. In a profile view, it should be tucked back so that it does no intersect with the profile line or the chin/jaw line.
Go-to poses! YES! OF COURSE! It is important to have standard, easy to hold, comfortable, natural and graceful poses that can be executed quickly, flatter the subjects and show off the lines of the wedding dresses. To illustrate this, I will have to prepare another thread with the basic posing method. All good poses start with the proper placement of the feet, the legs and the distribution of body weight that enables easy pivoting. One the proper posture is established, everything falls into place. This is very precise but it is not torturous or stiff.
It is better to fill the frame in proportion to the aspect ration of the final image.For groups, it is best to use a normal lens or zoom setting and not depend of massive cropping. Working at f/5.6 or f/'8 will provide you with more depth of field with a working distance between 10 and 15 feet, depending on the size of the group.
If you are having difficulty with folks blinking, you might consider working the groups with the camera on a tripod. I compose and focus and then work from just above the camera. I can talk to the subjects and by not peering through the viewfinder, I can better observe their peak expression and make sure all their eyes are open. Rather than count, I might crack a joke and say "when I take this shot.... I EXPOSE...and then continue shooting. If they are not expecting or anticipating the flash or the click, they won't flinch and their expressions will be more natural. I will do a few shot of everyone looking at the camera and a few looking at each other and mixing it up- shaking hands, kissing and hugging, high fiving, back slapping and waving- theses are fun a natural images and this also helps with incessant blinkers. Once everyone is lined up all of this takes only a few seconds!
I hope this helps for now and I will start working on a posing thread.
Keep the questions coming.
Kindest regards, Ed
Jun 22, 2017 10:03:11 #
BermBuster.....can I call you Berm? (kidding, we are friends here, if you care to share your name, we can feel a little less silly in discussions, but it's up to you)
Awesome questions, and OF COURSE, awesome answers from Ed.
Your settings, camera positions etc, sound like you have the technical stuff pretty down, which is good.
I think your issue may start before the wedding ever happens. I meet with couples several times before the actual wedding day. At my first meeting, and each meeting after that, I discuss time tables. If the invitations are already sent out (which I hate) it's difficult to stretch the time out much, but I tell them to "assume" that if they don't do first looks, they need to either figure on an hour minimum to get the formals done, OR, they may not get the formals that they want. I really push first looks, and always bring out the story of why it's bad luck to see the bride before the wedding. (from the days of arranged marriages, they were afraid that if the groom saw the bride before hand, he would back out) That gets a laugh, and often times, will get me more time before the ceremony. I'm honest with them. 1/2 hour (20 minutes!!! holy cow) means that they won't be able to get the "pinterist" like photos that they told me that they wanted. We would have to keep it down to bridal party, and hopefully parents, but no other groups, because 1/2 hour is only 1/2 hour, and people just don't move and cooperate that fast. If they understand, AND I even have them sign something that says, they understand that there won't be more than cursory formal poses because of limited time, and I won't be held liable for not getting a formal pose that they wanted..... I will proceed. By the time I go through this educational process, and tell them that after 33 years (Gawd! I'm getting too old for this) I know how long the formals will take if they want complete coverage. I won't turn the job down, but more often than not, they "find ways" to give me more time, whether that means some formals done earlier in the day, or "they make people wait" at the reception hall. If not, hey, less stress for me I guess.
I know, Ed's probably biting off his tongue at my way of handling the situation. It's just what I do, probably not the "right way," but someone has to keep Ed's blood pressure up. (smile)
As for Flow Posing, YES YES YES,. Watch youtube videos on flow posing. Also if you are a PPA member, they have videos in their educational series about flow posing as well. (I just got a message back from PPA, where I noticed a problem with a flow posing video a few months ago, that nobody ever reported......yay me.... ) They were missing the track with explanations, just a guy pointing and moving people, but you couldn't hear what he was trying to teach people.
Anyway, I can't suggest PPA highly enough. Not only is there a ton of good info and business help, but they also have affordable liability insurance. a free to members indemnity trust (think Professional liability insurance, or errors and omissions insurance, if you have a memory card failure, or someone tries to sue you because they don't like what you did for them) and $15000 of free equipment insurance.
I don't work for them, but it is a resource I find myself going to all the time, and I think it is worth every penny.
Sorry, off track again. Man, I need medication...
Awesome questions, and OF COURSE, awesome answers from Ed.
Your settings, camera positions etc, sound like you have the technical stuff pretty down, which is good.
I think your issue may start before the wedding ever happens. I meet with couples several times before the actual wedding day. At my first meeting, and each meeting after that, I discuss time tables. If the invitations are already sent out (which I hate) it's difficult to stretch the time out much, but I tell them to "assume" that if they don't do first looks, they need to either figure on an hour minimum to get the formals done, OR, they may not get the formals that they want. I really push first looks, and always bring out the story of why it's bad luck to see the bride before the wedding. (from the days of arranged marriages, they were afraid that if the groom saw the bride before hand, he would back out) That gets a laugh, and often times, will get me more time before the ceremony. I'm honest with them. 1/2 hour (20 minutes!!! holy cow) means that they won't be able to get the "pinterist" like photos that they told me that they wanted. We would have to keep it down to bridal party, and hopefully parents, but no other groups, because 1/2 hour is only 1/2 hour, and people just don't move and cooperate that fast. If they understand, AND I even have them sign something that says, they understand that there won't be more than cursory formal poses because of limited time, and I won't be held liable for not getting a formal pose that they wanted..... I will proceed. By the time I go through this educational process, and tell them that after 33 years (Gawd! I'm getting too old for this) I know how long the formals will take if they want complete coverage. I won't turn the job down, but more often than not, they "find ways" to give me more time, whether that means some formals done earlier in the day, or "they make people wait" at the reception hall. If not, hey, less stress for me I guess.
I know, Ed's probably biting off his tongue at my way of handling the situation. It's just what I do, probably not the "right way," but someone has to keep Ed's blood pressure up. (smile)
As for Flow Posing, YES YES YES,. Watch youtube videos on flow posing. Also if you are a PPA member, they have videos in their educational series about flow posing as well. (I just got a message back from PPA, where I noticed a problem with a flow posing video a few months ago, that nobody ever reported......yay me.... ) They were missing the track with explanations, just a guy pointing and moving people, but you couldn't hear what he was trying to teach people.
Anyway, I can't suggest PPA highly enough. Not only is there a ton of good info and business help, but they also have affordable liability insurance. a free to members indemnity trust (think Professional liability insurance, or errors and omissions insurance, if you have a memory card failure, or someone tries to sue you because they don't like what you did for them) and $15000 of free equipment insurance.
I don't work for them, but it is a resource I find myself going to all the time, and I think it is worth every penny.
Sorry, off track again. Man, I need medication...
Jun 22, 2017 12:56:46 #
I too am a big fan of doing all the formals before the ceremony- way before the rituals and the festivities begin. In certain cultures, the couple seeing each other prior to the ceremony is strictly forbidden- not just a matter of superstition. In ultra-orthodox Judaism, the couple must stay apart for a couple of weeks before the wedding day. A few hours before the ceremony, the formals are done, in separate places for the bride, her party and family and likewise for the groom's entourage. There are separate religious sub-ceremonies, the signing of documents and prayers and the couple only come together again at the veiling of the bride ceremony just before the main ceremony which is a very long and complex ritual with multiple rabbis. After the ceremony, pandemonium ensues- riotous dancing and then the couple is isolated for some private time. Then comes the formals of the couple together and all the required groups in a very short window of opportunity-CRAZY!. Then comes a big meal and all-night dancing. There is no social dancing- the guys do their thing and the gals do theirs except where the couple is lifted up on chairs and are brought together in a very long and festive dance. Speeches and prayers can go 'till 3:00AM. By the time I pack my gear, load the car, drop off my assistants and drive home, I am just in time for breakfast!
Funny enough, some of theses Orthodox Jewish traditions are based on old folklore going back to the days of arranged marriages, however it was the bride who would faint when she first laid eyes on the guy that her folks selected for her. In the olden days, that little time where the couple are sequestered in privacy symbolizes a time when the marriage was consummated right after the nuptials- there and then! If the "session" was na no-go, the marriage was dissolved! Modern orthodox brides and grooms date, get to know each other, plan their weddings and the girls wear modest but very fashionable gowns.
Regular orthodox, conservative and reform Jews will usually allow for all the formals being staged well before the ceremony so the rest of the day can flow smoothly without having to pose. Some Christian couples have consented to formal sessions before the ceremony but some still stick to the traditional system. Of course, whether it's superstition, law, tradition or whatever, I always respect the couple's choices. My selling points for the preliminary shots being done and out of the way before the ceremony is that everyone is fresh, we can do the session in privacy and a completely relaxed atmosphere and they get to enjoy the day with no further ado. I have even had a few couple pose for their formals a day or two before the big day and requested a straight out photojournalistic coverage on the actual day- not a bad idea! The get to choose their favorite location and totally enjoy their wedding.
I always emphasize the fact that I do not want to turn anyone's wedding into an all day photo shoot but the more time I can get to do my thing the better the results will be. I don't ask for a disproportionate length of time. After all if the entire wedding is a 4 hour event there might be only a few minutes to spare. Most of my assignments, however, are all day and half the night affairs, so an hour or two for photography is not an outrageous plan.
I never get upset when my colleagues, here on the Hog and elsewhere, explain their own systems, methods and techniques that are different from my own. I am here to learn too and I have long ago taken on the philosophy that very little of what I do or say is "carved in stone". The only things that "bug" me is when I see wedding photographers, in particular, kinda making life more difficult for themselves by adding stress to their jobs. That's because our jobs, even under the best of circumstances, have in intrinsic level of stress- it's built in!
We take on the responsibilities of recording what is usually a once-in-a-lifetime event, we work with tight and restricted schedules, we need to cope with sometimes unpredictable spaces, lighting and technical issues and oftentimes our subjects are in highly emotional or nervous states. Sometimes we have to make art in the face of chaos! I also hate to see guys and gals working hard and being under appreciated and underpaid. So...anything I can suggest that makes things go a little smoother and perhaps put a few extra bucks in someone's bank account us put forward with good intentions- no ego involved!
Oh- I do take my blood-pressure meds every day but it ain't because of y'all- it seem high BP runs in the family. I must admit that I am a bit of a control freak, so much so that I am now designing my own tombstone with the inscription "...told you I was sick"!
: :sm2:
Funny enough, some of theses Orthodox Jewish traditions are based on old folklore going back to the days of arranged marriages, however it was the bride who would faint when she first laid eyes on the guy that her folks selected for her. In the olden days, that little time where the couple are sequestered in privacy symbolizes a time when the marriage was consummated right after the nuptials- there and then! If the "session" was na no-go, the marriage was dissolved! Modern orthodox brides and grooms date, get to know each other, plan their weddings and the girls wear modest but very fashionable gowns.
Regular orthodox, conservative and reform Jews will usually allow for all the formals being staged well before the ceremony so the rest of the day can flow smoothly without having to pose. Some Christian couples have consented to formal sessions before the ceremony but some still stick to the traditional system. Of course, whether it's superstition, law, tradition or whatever, I always respect the couple's choices. My selling points for the preliminary shots being done and out of the way before the ceremony is that everyone is fresh, we can do the session in privacy and a completely relaxed atmosphere and they get to enjoy the day with no further ado. I have even had a few couple pose for their formals a day or two before the big day and requested a straight out photojournalistic coverage on the actual day- not a bad idea! The get to choose their favorite location and totally enjoy their wedding.
I always emphasize the fact that I do not want to turn anyone's wedding into an all day photo shoot but the more time I can get to do my thing the better the results will be. I don't ask for a disproportionate length of time. After all if the entire wedding is a 4 hour event there might be only a few minutes to spare. Most of my assignments, however, are all day and half the night affairs, so an hour or two for photography is not an outrageous plan.
I never get upset when my colleagues, here on the Hog and elsewhere, explain their own systems, methods and techniques that are different from my own. I am here to learn too and I have long ago taken on the philosophy that very little of what I do or say is "carved in stone". The only things that "bug" me is when I see wedding photographers, in particular, kinda making life more difficult for themselves by adding stress to their jobs. That's because our jobs, even under the best of circumstances, have in intrinsic level of stress- it's built in!
We take on the responsibilities of recording what is usually a once-in-a-lifetime event, we work with tight and restricted schedules, we need to cope with sometimes unpredictable spaces, lighting and technical issues and oftentimes our subjects are in highly emotional or nervous states. Sometimes we have to make art in the face of chaos! I also hate to see guys and gals working hard and being under appreciated and underpaid. So...anything I can suggest that makes things go a little smoother and perhaps put a few extra bucks in someone's bank account us put forward with good intentions- no ego involved!
Oh- I do take my blood-pressure meds every day but it ain't because of y'all- it seem high BP runs in the family. I must admit that I am a bit of a control freak, so much so that I am now designing my own tombstone with the inscription "...told you I was sick"!
: :sm2:
Jun 22, 2017 14:36:46 #
BermB,
I am going to go ahead and respond before reading all that long winded stuff from Bob and Ed, then go back and read it. Just kidding guys, it is excellent stuff but knowing me I will take too long to read it and not respond so I will respond first.
I think I am in the same place as you in terms of being rushed and challenged with posing and lighting. I approach the rushed part of it by pre-arranging the groupings and who is placed where in conversations with the bride. I determine the location(s) and get settings in a pre visit to the church or the rehearsal. Things will go wrong as they often do, but it is all about making the best of what cards you are dealt. Posing is something IMO that is definitely tough, but gets better with practice. My secret weapon is my wife who knows nothing about photography, but she is great at looking for detail such as hand placement, hair, clothing problems, etc... Lighting, I have tried many things but most often I bring a large octabox powered by a 500 watt strobe. I put it up high camera left and it can light the whole group evenly.
I don't get perfect shots every time, but they are getting better with practice. I would suggest that we use this opportunity to post some of our formal pics and talk about what went wrong and/or right.
I am going to go ahead and respond before reading all that long winded stuff from Bob and Ed, then go back and read it. Just kidding guys, it is excellent stuff but knowing me I will take too long to read it and not respond so I will respond first.
I think I am in the same place as you in terms of being rushed and challenged with posing and lighting. I approach the rushed part of it by pre-arranging the groupings and who is placed where in conversations with the bride. I determine the location(s) and get settings in a pre visit to the church or the rehearsal. Things will go wrong as they often do, but it is all about making the best of what cards you are dealt. Posing is something IMO that is definitely tough, but gets better with practice. My secret weapon is my wife who knows nothing about photography, but she is great at looking for detail such as hand placement, hair, clothing problems, etc... Lighting, I have tried many things but most often I bring a large octabox powered by a 500 watt strobe. I put it up high camera left and it can light the whole group evenly.
I don't get perfect shots every time, but they are getting better with practice. I would suggest that we use this opportunity to post some of our formal pics and talk about what went wrong and/or right.
Jun 22, 2017 19:03:43 #
Jun 23, 2017 20:30:15 #
Very good advise! thank you all for taking the time to answer!
I love hearing about all these ethnic weddings and traditions :)
Great Tips, esp to do bride's portraits and formals, prior to the ceremony.
And taking the bridal party to a more remote and undisclosed location -I’ll try to make that happen.
- & bkyser, I think I’ll start emphasizing and reminding them of timetables. Thanks for the tips on flow posing, & PPA.
Ed, A couple Questions, if I Dare......
1) On the veil, not sure I understand, ....“In a profile view, it should be tucked back so that it does no intersect with the profile line or the chin/jaw line”?
Do you mean flip it back or take it off?
2) As you know, I’m working on this ‘on camera fill’ technique, when you mention for groups...”A main light at about 20-25 degrees and a fill light on the camera will produce a more pleasing lighting. ... the aforementioned kicker system will work well too”.
Do you recommend just 1 light 20-25°? and 1 kicker? or would 2 be better?
This lighting at 135°, 20°, 45°...etc, is new to me.
I usually picture a clock on the ground...I’m at 6, my loop light is usually at 8 or 4 o’clock etc... When I do loop, butterfly, rembrant - it’s all trial and error. Usually my light is about 45° up. I like catchlites at 10 or 2 o’clock - if I can.
Just my way of coming up with quick & simple... But thanks to you guys on here, I drew out a compass so I can follow the lighting suggestions.
I am guilty of cross and flat lighting groups, I feel like groups are an exercise in compromise. DOF, Lighting, eyes, shadows from others, camera angle , posing, catchlites etc etc etc...
thanks for pointing out -to keep the lighting pattern/ratios so that minor miscalculations will not lead to bad results.
-Thanks Jaysnave, I also previsit, select locations, and take light readings to save time. Murphy always shows up (uninvited)... I think we all have to prepare and adapt as we go, so I really enjoy hearing how you guys deal with this.You have given me many new ideas.
Oh, and bkyser... My name is Kent, I'll try to sign off that way more often.
Bermbuster hasn't anything to do with heavy equipment operator as it probly sounds... Taken from my Motorcross racing days :)
I love hearing about all these ethnic weddings and traditions :)
Great Tips, esp to do bride's portraits and formals, prior to the ceremony.
And taking the bridal party to a more remote and undisclosed location -I’ll try to make that happen.
- & bkyser, I think I’ll start emphasizing and reminding them of timetables. Thanks for the tips on flow posing, & PPA.
Ed, A couple Questions, if I Dare......
1) On the veil, not sure I understand, ....“In a profile view, it should be tucked back so that it does no intersect with the profile line or the chin/jaw line”?
Do you mean flip it back or take it off?
2) As you know, I’m working on this ‘on camera fill’ technique, when you mention for groups...”A main light at about 20-25 degrees and a fill light on the camera will produce a more pleasing lighting. ... the aforementioned kicker system will work well too”.
Do you recommend just 1 light 20-25°? and 1 kicker? or would 2 be better?
This lighting at 135°, 20°, 45°...etc, is new to me.
I usually picture a clock on the ground...I’m at 6, my loop light is usually at 8 or 4 o’clock etc... When I do loop, butterfly, rembrant - it’s all trial and error. Usually my light is about 45° up. I like catchlites at 10 or 2 o’clock - if I can.
Just my way of coming up with quick & simple... But thanks to you guys on here, I drew out a compass so I can follow the lighting suggestions.
I am guilty of cross and flat lighting groups, I feel like groups are an exercise in compromise. DOF, Lighting, eyes, shadows from others, camera angle , posing, catchlites etc etc etc...
thanks for pointing out -to keep the lighting pattern/ratios so that minor miscalculations will not lead to bad results.
-Thanks Jaysnave, I also previsit, select locations, and take light readings to save time. Murphy always shows up (uninvited)... I think we all have to prepare and adapt as we go, so I really enjoy hearing how you guys deal with this.You have given me many new ideas.
Oh, and bkyser... My name is Kent, I'll try to sign off that way more often.
Bermbuster hasn't anything to do with heavy equipment operator as it probly sounds... Taken from my Motorcross racing days :)
Jun 24, 2017 09:16:19 #
Ok Kent (Bermbuster is a cool name) if you don't mind I will kick off the photo critique with these group pics of a wedding I did at the zoo over a year ago. The bride wanted so many combinations that I set up my large Octabox camera left to spread light as wide as possible covering all scenarios. Of course Murphy showed up. I think he is invited to all weddings. We were planning to get the group pics out on the balcony but a rainstorm chased us inside. The inside/outside situation created some bad backlighting. The clock was ticking so we went at it. There are many things I would have liked to improve in retrospect in terms of posing and positioning but here you go guys, how could lighting have been improved? I look at critique as a way to improve so don't worry about my sensitivity.
Jun 24, 2017 12:21:14 #
Greetings gang!
Let me start by addressing Kent's questions.
The veil in a profile view: it is best to place the veil in such a position that it does not intersect with the line of the profile. (see attached image).
2 light system: When you begin to introduce multiple lighting systems at weddings, it is best to start with a basic 2 light system. The main light on a stand or manned by an assistant and the fill light on the camera. In rushed circumstances, using more that one off camera light can become too cumbersome and time consuming. The attached diagram shows the various alternative positions for the off camera light. When I indicate the off camera light's position in degrees, I am drawing an imaginary line from the camera to the subject- this is called the camera/subject axis. The angle in degrees pertains to the angular relationship of the lighting position to that axis. Your clock idea is also a good way to envision this. So if the subject is at the center of the clock and the camera is at 6 o'clock, the main light should be about 5 (or 5:30 so to speak) for a group shot. For groups, especially larger ones, we are keeping the main light at a lesser angle that we would for a single subject or a couple. We need the lighting to be even and a bit flatter and in a position where it will not cast shadows from one member of the group onto another. With groups we are trying for a butterfly lighting or a modified butterfly (or loop) lighting. With single subjects or couples, a position about between 4 and 5 o'clock would yield a more pronounced loop light moving toward a Rembrandt effect a 4 and a split light a 3 o'clock. At 2 o'clock we get the KICKER effect which works well for profile lighting or as an accent light when the main light source is on the camera.
Another suggestion: When working indoors- if AC power is available, one of your Alien Bee lights, fitted with an umbrella or a soft-box, can be used as a main light with your on-camera speedlight as a fill. With this method, you can precisely aim your light for the desired effect. Of course, the modeling light is a big plus! A soft-box or umbrella modification will also enable a more diffused and more evenly distributed lighting pattern - great for groups.
For sure- groups do call for a compromise lighting situation in that you can not individualize the lighting on each subject and you have to find a mean solution that works nicely, however, using a more uni-directional lighting, rather than cross-lighting will give you better aesthetics, more dimension and better rendition of textures.
I hope this helps- keep me up to date on your progress!
Jay's critique is up next!
Thanks for your question!
Ed
Let me start by addressing Kent's questions.
The veil in a profile view: it is best to place the veil in such a position that it does not intersect with the line of the profile. (see attached image).
2 light system: When you begin to introduce multiple lighting systems at weddings, it is best to start with a basic 2 light system. The main light on a stand or manned by an assistant and the fill light on the camera. In rushed circumstances, using more that one off camera light can become too cumbersome and time consuming. The attached diagram shows the various alternative positions for the off camera light. When I indicate the off camera light's position in degrees, I am drawing an imaginary line from the camera to the subject- this is called the camera/subject axis. The angle in degrees pertains to the angular relationship of the lighting position to that axis. Your clock idea is also a good way to envision this. So if the subject is at the center of the clock and the camera is at 6 o'clock, the main light should be about 5 (or 5:30 so to speak) for a group shot. For groups, especially larger ones, we are keeping the main light at a lesser angle that we would for a single subject or a couple. We need the lighting to be even and a bit flatter and in a position where it will not cast shadows from one member of the group onto another. With groups we are trying for a butterfly lighting or a modified butterfly (or loop) lighting. With single subjects or couples, a position about between 4 and 5 o'clock would yield a more pronounced loop light moving toward a Rembrandt effect a 4 and a split light a 3 o'clock. At 2 o'clock we get the KICKER effect which works well for profile lighting or as an accent light when the main light source is on the camera.
Another suggestion: When working indoors- if AC power is available, one of your Alien Bee lights, fitted with an umbrella or a soft-box, can be used as a main light with your on-camera speedlight as a fill. With this method, you can precisely aim your light for the desired effect. Of course, the modeling light is a big plus! A soft-box or umbrella modification will also enable a more diffused and more evenly distributed lighting pattern - great for groups.
For sure- groups do call for a compromise lighting situation in that you can not individualize the lighting on each subject and you have to find a mean solution that works nicely, however, using a more uni-directional lighting, rather than cross-lighting will give you better aesthetics, more dimension and better rendition of textures.
I hope this helps- keep me up to date on your progress!
Jay's critique is up next!
Thanks for your question!
Ed
Jun 24, 2017 16:32:02 #
Hey Jay! Thanks for posting those group shots- they are great grist for our mill here- lots of good points to discuss!
So...this thread started out talking about RUSHED formal portraits. Working under the pressure of rushed circumstances can be very stressful- to say the least. Where and when we are not allowed ample time to do our work, not only do we invite Mr. Murphy to each wedding, we have him picked up in a chauffeured limousine to make sure he gets there! When I looked at all those folks in your groups, in that location, I broke a sympathy sweat and I am sitting here in my air conditioned studio! That must have been some HARD WORK!
When there are serious and disproportionate time constraints, we are working in what I call a "salvage operation" all we can do, especially with large groups, is get everyone together- hopefully, half of them are not in the washrooms or somewhere else, throw everyone together hurriedly, position them or try to find an elevation where we can SEE all the faces, get nice happy expressions and shoot! You did all of that- KUDOS! I am sure the client will be happy to see the gang- all in a happy mood!
You have to be Hoodini, to create "fine portraiture" under those circumstances. For future reference, therefore, it's a good idea to vie for more time to enable more precise posing, attention to detail and lighting. Perhaps finding a location that is more conducive to privacy and and better location staging qualities should also be considered in the planning stages.
OK- All things being equal, lets look a theses images and see how the could have been improved.
In order to get a clear shot and include all of the faces in an unobstructed way, you needed elevation. Problem is, shooting from a high position, thereby shooting down at groups and full lenght subjects, causes distortion in the form of foreshortening- folks end up looking shorter that the are. There is also linear distortion of vertical lines- upright elements in the background or in other parts of the composition, look like they are falling forward. This issue becomes more pronounced with wide angle lenses or shorter focal length zoom settings- so I try try use normal or only slightly wider that normal focal lengths. The use of wide angle lenses can also cause people in the back rows to be rendered with smaller head sizes- that can look weird! To prevent this, I try to find inclined ground, use existing steps, or create multiple rows of people- perhaps with one row sitting on the floor or ground, one row seated on chairs, the next row standing behind them and if there are more folks, another row standing on chairs or benches behind the last standing row. I try to keep the camera level, parallel to vertical lines and resort to only slight elevation (of my camera position) if required. I also attempt to vary the heights in such a way so as to shape the group in a more triangular arrangement- if at all possible.
Attention to detail: I know this is a tall order! I am a real fuss-pot! I make sure that the guys fix ther neckties, button their jackets, and pull up ther trousers! The ladies usually fix themselves up better!
Posing: The trick with groups is to set each person up as if their pose would work in an individual portrait as to posture, placement of arms, hands, legs and feet. People who are seated sould sit all the way back into the chair with a posture the affords then full extension of their spine- that makes things more comfortable.I don't know how to put this more delicately but the should be at an ange where we are not shooting into their crotches. I will be working on a very detail posing guide for future reference.Too many arem all of ther place can be managed by having the gentlemen place one head in their trouser pocket and draping ther jackets casually.Ladies look better weh the arms are not placed at right angle positions- it makes their biceps bulge and ther upper arms look heavier. The bride should hold her flowers somewhat lower- her arms will be more graceful and she won't hide the bodice and waistline of her gown. Good posture is important in that when folks slouch, even well tailored clothing looks like it is ill fitting.
When there are kids in the group, I bring along my COOKIE MONSTER or something like that- it keeps ther attention and prevents them them from glancing off camera and makes the adults laugh and smile at the same time.
I sometimes take a strange approach that works well where there is total chaos and lots of folks to shoot. Rather than end up trying to make very formal - formals, I will go totally causal. I will have them relate to each other, shake hands, back-slap- high-five, wave at the camera, hug- kiss and carry on. Instead of ending up with sloppy form as I get "sloppy elegant" groups and it looks more natural. The folks love it and the shots sell well! I will try for a kind formal shot and the let them go wild- it only takes a few second per group and they usually opt for the more fun shots!
I must admit, that I don't work totally SOLO. I usually have 2 assistants. One is on the lights and the other helps me get folks tidied up- neckties- jackets, boutineers, baggy pants and all that. He or she will prep the next group as I continually shoot. Things move very fast if I can concentrate on refining the poses and making certain that I am getting good expressions- open eyes and undivided attention. Opening up closed eyes, fixing clothing and exchanging heads in PhotoShop is not my idea of a good time so I try to get it all done in the raw file!
Well- The venue was at the ZOO so I don't mind the GIRAFFE- kinda cute- but there are a guy with a pony tail milling around in the background- extra work in PhotoShop!
Now- PLEASE do not consider this a specific critique- NOT everything I mentioned is "WRONG" with theses images. Based on what I am observing in theses shots and where Jay wants to take his skills, please consider this more of a general tutorial.
Truth be told, I have a love/hate relationship with critiques. I love to offer are good positive constructive critique and I love to have my work critiqued by others- keeps me honest. I was brought up in the business on critiques. I was the rookie in a shop fill of old crusty photographers who used me for a "photographic punching bag"! I soon realized that this was their version of TOUGH LOVE and did I ever learn the ropes fast! They dragged me to print competitions at our association and encouraged me to enter, compete and receive critiques. I don't see this kind thing anymore- so I do my best to encourage folks and hope for the best.
My favorite part of part of print or photographic competitions is attending the judging or participating as a junge. When there is a point spread and challenges take place whereby judges with different opinions, each have to make their case. That's when the learning flows and more importantly, we learn that there are so many valid points of view on the same image!
The hate part? OK- Oftentimes, giving critiques in online photo forums is like experimenting with incendiary devices, booby traps and nitroglycerin! I hate it when people make harsh and destructive criticism- these approaches are totally counterproductive and useless. The concept of critiques is one of the best time-honored and most effective teaching and learning tools in photographic education, provided the critiques are presented properly and honestly with good intentions and kindness. In critiquing, there is no valid place for ego trips.
For those who are not experienced in giving critiques and wish to try their hand at it, here are some of the criteria to consider: Visual impact (kind of your first impression of the image), composition, technical merit, use of light or lighting, tonality, color harmony, contrast, storytelling value, expression, posing, artistic interpretation, craftsmanship and presentation.
I hope we can make critiquing a more successful and enjoyable part of our forum.
Ed
So...this thread started out talking about RUSHED formal portraits. Working under the pressure of rushed circumstances can be very stressful- to say the least. Where and when we are not allowed ample time to do our work, not only do we invite Mr. Murphy to each wedding, we have him picked up in a chauffeured limousine to make sure he gets there! When I looked at all those folks in your groups, in that location, I broke a sympathy sweat and I am sitting here in my air conditioned studio! That must have been some HARD WORK!
When there are serious and disproportionate time constraints, we are working in what I call a "salvage operation" all we can do, especially with large groups, is get everyone together- hopefully, half of them are not in the washrooms or somewhere else, throw everyone together hurriedly, position them or try to find an elevation where we can SEE all the faces, get nice happy expressions and shoot! You did all of that- KUDOS! I am sure the client will be happy to see the gang- all in a happy mood!
You have to be Hoodini, to create "fine portraiture" under those circumstances. For future reference, therefore, it's a good idea to vie for more time to enable more precise posing, attention to detail and lighting. Perhaps finding a location that is more conducive to privacy and and better location staging qualities should also be considered in the planning stages.
OK- All things being equal, lets look a theses images and see how the could have been improved.
In order to get a clear shot and include all of the faces in an unobstructed way, you needed elevation. Problem is, shooting from a high position, thereby shooting down at groups and full lenght subjects, causes distortion in the form of foreshortening- folks end up looking shorter that the are. There is also linear distortion of vertical lines- upright elements in the background or in other parts of the composition, look like they are falling forward. This issue becomes more pronounced with wide angle lenses or shorter focal length zoom settings- so I try try use normal or only slightly wider that normal focal lengths. The use of wide angle lenses can also cause people in the back rows to be rendered with smaller head sizes- that can look weird! To prevent this, I try to find inclined ground, use existing steps, or create multiple rows of people- perhaps with one row sitting on the floor or ground, one row seated on chairs, the next row standing behind them and if there are more folks, another row standing on chairs or benches behind the last standing row. I try to keep the camera level, parallel to vertical lines and resort to only slight elevation (of my camera position) if required. I also attempt to vary the heights in such a way so as to shape the group in a more triangular arrangement- if at all possible.
Attention to detail: I know this is a tall order! I am a real fuss-pot! I make sure that the guys fix ther neckties, button their jackets, and pull up ther trousers! The ladies usually fix themselves up better!
Posing: The trick with groups is to set each person up as if their pose would work in an individual portrait as to posture, placement of arms, hands, legs and feet. People who are seated sould sit all the way back into the chair with a posture the affords then full extension of their spine- that makes things more comfortable.I don't know how to put this more delicately but the should be at an ange where we are not shooting into their crotches. I will be working on a very detail posing guide for future reference.Too many arem all of ther place can be managed by having the gentlemen place one head in their trouser pocket and draping ther jackets casually.Ladies look better weh the arms are not placed at right angle positions- it makes their biceps bulge and ther upper arms look heavier. The bride should hold her flowers somewhat lower- her arms will be more graceful and she won't hide the bodice and waistline of her gown. Good posture is important in that when folks slouch, even well tailored clothing looks like it is ill fitting.
When there are kids in the group, I bring along my COOKIE MONSTER or something like that- it keeps ther attention and prevents them them from glancing off camera and makes the adults laugh and smile at the same time.
I sometimes take a strange approach that works well where there is total chaos and lots of folks to shoot. Rather than end up trying to make very formal - formals, I will go totally causal. I will have them relate to each other, shake hands, back-slap- high-five, wave at the camera, hug- kiss and carry on. Instead of ending up with sloppy form as I get "sloppy elegant" groups and it looks more natural. The folks love it and the shots sell well! I will try for a kind formal shot and the let them go wild- it only takes a few second per group and they usually opt for the more fun shots!
I must admit, that I don't work totally SOLO. I usually have 2 assistants. One is on the lights and the other helps me get folks tidied up- neckties- jackets, boutineers, baggy pants and all that. He or she will prep the next group as I continually shoot. Things move very fast if I can concentrate on refining the poses and making certain that I am getting good expressions- open eyes and undivided attention. Opening up closed eyes, fixing clothing and exchanging heads in PhotoShop is not my idea of a good time so I try to get it all done in the raw file!
Well- The venue was at the ZOO so I don't mind the GIRAFFE- kinda cute- but there are a guy with a pony tail milling around in the background- extra work in PhotoShop!
Now- PLEASE do not consider this a specific critique- NOT everything I mentioned is "WRONG" with theses images. Based on what I am observing in theses shots and where Jay wants to take his skills, please consider this more of a general tutorial.
Truth be told, I have a love/hate relationship with critiques. I love to offer are good positive constructive critique and I love to have my work critiqued by others- keeps me honest. I was brought up in the business on critiques. I was the rookie in a shop fill of old crusty photographers who used me for a "photographic punching bag"! I soon realized that this was their version of TOUGH LOVE and did I ever learn the ropes fast! They dragged me to print competitions at our association and encouraged me to enter, compete and receive critiques. I don't see this kind thing anymore- so I do my best to encourage folks and hope for the best.
My favorite part of part of print or photographic competitions is attending the judging or participating as a junge. When there is a point spread and challenges take place whereby judges with different opinions, each have to make their case. That's when the learning flows and more importantly, we learn that there are so many valid points of view on the same image!
The hate part? OK- Oftentimes, giving critiques in online photo forums is like experimenting with incendiary devices, booby traps and nitroglycerin! I hate it when people make harsh and destructive criticism- these approaches are totally counterproductive and useless. The concept of critiques is one of the best time-honored and most effective teaching and learning tools in photographic education, provided the critiques are presented properly and honestly with good intentions and kindness. In critiquing, there is no valid place for ego trips.
For those who are not experienced in giving critiques and wish to try their hand at it, here are some of the criteria to consider: Visual impact (kind of your first impression of the image), composition, technical merit, use of light or lighting, tonality, color harmony, contrast, storytelling value, expression, posing, artistic interpretation, craftsmanship and presentation.
I hope we can make critiquing a more successful and enjoyable part of our forum.
Ed
Jun 24, 2017 21:09:01 #
Ed, Thanks for clarifying. I was thinking a whole different direction. your example was great and makes sense.
I'm still absorbing your post :)
Jay, as a one light shooter-usually solo, I'm not really qualified to critique.
30+ people moved to another location, I was gritting my teeth :) But you pulled it off! Looks like in the group shot you were up on a ladder?
I don't usually notice the falling timbers 'till after the fact, so I like Eds' thinking on how to prevent it.
On the big group I'd like to see the bride sit up,move a couple women, maybe a better pose for the lady in second row, and have all their attention. The Giraffe is great! :)
On the smaller portrait, When I'm paying attention to details(which isn't often) -I try to keep women from pressing their arms where the skin shows...where in this case, it's the husband hand, & I'd like a better pose for the lady in beige, maybe more of a turn? Maybe the kid in front? (I try to make the Moms look good, because they usually pay the bill)...The girl in yellow is taller, and dress is almost as bright, I don't know what to do with her, maybe in just a bit closer?
These are things I notice... doubt I could have done better... You made it look like there was no kaos at all, Must be that good camera you have!! Great job!
I'm still absorbing your post :)
Jay, as a one light shooter-usually solo, I'm not really qualified to critique.
30+ people moved to another location, I was gritting my teeth :) But you pulled it off! Looks like in the group shot you were up on a ladder?
I don't usually notice the falling timbers 'till after the fact, so I like Eds' thinking on how to prevent it.
On the big group I'd like to see the bride sit up,move a couple women, maybe a better pose for the lady in second row, and have all their attention. The Giraffe is great! :)
On the smaller portrait, When I'm paying attention to details(which isn't often) -I try to keep women from pressing their arms where the skin shows...where in this case, it's the husband hand, & I'd like a better pose for the lady in beige, maybe more of a turn? Maybe the kid in front? (I try to make the Moms look good, because they usually pay the bill)...The girl in yellow is taller, and dress is almost as bright, I don't know what to do with her, maybe in just a bit closer?
These are things I notice... doubt I could have done better... You made it look like there was no kaos at all, Must be that good camera you have!! Great job!
Jun 24, 2017 21:40:57 #
A good exercise in observing detail. At weddings we have to spot things quickly and solve problems in very short order.
Jun 25, 2017 17:08:02 #
Ed & Kent,
Thanks for the comments. My intent is to stir up some good discussion on improving group shots. Both formal and the less formal. I know there are things that could have been better and I take no offense to suggestions. I try to do my own critique each time I take a photo which is pretty much every day. I watched a video tutorial from a well known photographer where he said he not only saves his best images, but also the images that did not work. Why? because he wants to learn from them and minimize the chance he will not make that mistake again. Actually, for this group anyway I would like to drop the word critique and just go with "reflections", how to make images even better. I would like to see continuing discussion on all group shots and then possibly other elements of wedding photography such as bridal party, getting ready, first dance etc...
Regarding comments on the two images submitted, it seems that most of them were about posing and positioning. That kind of confirms what I have been thinking that posing is the most important and the most challenging aspect to people photography. The more people the more challenging. Also, the bigger the impact if done right. Also, one of my self reflections is that improving posing and positioning techniques does not come overnight. It takes practice and lots of it. I find that during a chaotic (rushed) situation the lessons learned kick in more often. For example I am confident that if done now I would not only notice the pony tail guy, but ask that he remove himself before clicking the shutter. I rarely miss a good child expression. I don't need a cookie monster, I am a good enough clown to get engagement then take several shots in case heads need swapped. I thought this one would be good for discussion. In fact I got some great shots of the young girls with the bride and in other group shots. It did not start well as they were not into getting their pics taken during the getting ready session in the hotel. Once we started playing this game of hide from the camera and peekaboo they warmed up to it.
Kent, I did have a small step ladder I used for the bigger groups. Although it helps seeing all the faces, I don't think I like that much elevation and would probably bring it down a bit. Plus it is distracting balancing on it while looking for detail. It was also tougher to find a place to set my drink (helps the stress). I am glad you like the giraffe. I actually put him there from a previous photo that I took before it rained. I have some without the giraffe also, but the wedding party favored animals in the pics I did too. That giraffe was a nuisance earlier (pic attached).
Anyway, I am not known for long posts and probably left out several points that I wanted to make but I will end it here. Again, I showed my group images for reflection. Lets get some more so we can share lessons learned.
Thanks for the comments. My intent is to stir up some good discussion on improving group shots. Both formal and the less formal. I know there are things that could have been better and I take no offense to suggestions. I try to do my own critique each time I take a photo which is pretty much every day. I watched a video tutorial from a well known photographer where he said he not only saves his best images, but also the images that did not work. Why? because he wants to learn from them and minimize the chance he will not make that mistake again. Actually, for this group anyway I would like to drop the word critique and just go with "reflections", how to make images even better. I would like to see continuing discussion on all group shots and then possibly other elements of wedding photography such as bridal party, getting ready, first dance etc...
Regarding comments on the two images submitted, it seems that most of them were about posing and positioning. That kind of confirms what I have been thinking that posing is the most important and the most challenging aspect to people photography. The more people the more challenging. Also, the bigger the impact if done right. Also, one of my self reflections is that improving posing and positioning techniques does not come overnight. It takes practice and lots of it. I find that during a chaotic (rushed) situation the lessons learned kick in more often. For example I am confident that if done now I would not only notice the pony tail guy, but ask that he remove himself before clicking the shutter. I rarely miss a good child expression. I don't need a cookie monster, I am a good enough clown to get engagement then take several shots in case heads need swapped. I thought this one would be good for discussion. In fact I got some great shots of the young girls with the bride and in other group shots. It did not start well as they were not into getting their pics taken during the getting ready session in the hotel. Once we started playing this game of hide from the camera and peekaboo they warmed up to it.
Kent, I did have a small step ladder I used for the bigger groups. Although it helps seeing all the faces, I don't think I like that much elevation and would probably bring it down a bit. Plus it is distracting balancing on it while looking for detail. It was also tougher to find a place to set my drink (helps the stress). I am glad you like the giraffe. I actually put him there from a previous photo that I took before it rained. I have some without the giraffe also, but the wedding party favored animals in the pics I did too. That giraffe was a nuisance earlier (pic attached).
Anyway, I am not known for long posts and probably left out several points that I wanted to make but I will end it here. Again, I showed my group images for reflection. Lets get some more so we can share lessons learned.
Jun 25, 2017 21:16:18 #
Hey Jay!
I really like the idea of self critiquing and keeping a file of photographs for reference- the good ones and the bloopers!
I have been doing that for years. At one point there were so many prints and files that I began to run out of storage space both in hard copies and even on my computer's hard drive- I had to install a few external drives. So...some time in the 1980s I copied a work book form from a course I was studying and began to keep a notebook for my own purposes and for teaching my classes and training photographer for my business. I keep the forms in my camera room and the office. I would make some hand written notes and attach a "proof" of each image I wished to archive. I now have a software program to accommodate theses files.
I know that hand writing stuff is old fashioned but I still like to jot technical information down, sometimes on the spur of the moment kinda thing, as I am working. I have files on my portrait work, commercial assignments and wedding photography. The worksheet is set up so all I have to do is fill in the blanks or scribble out a fast diagram.
The attached sheet illustrates how to retain detail in bridal gowns by lighting them properly. By having the bride turn her body away from the main light source and the gently turin her head toward the main lighting pattern, the angle of incidence on the detailed part of the gown is such that the light skims across the embroidery, lace or other details and brings out the texture in the fabric even in difficult white on white tones. At the same time, this position makes for a graceful feminine pose. It also shows that the lower position of the flowers does not hide the bodice and waistline of the dress. Providing the exposure is correct, light in this manner, yields maximum detail in the "whites" with no special burning in during editing. This is a one light + reflector shot. A Photogenic Powerlight monolight fitted with a 24" soft-box provided the main light and the fill is simply a flat super-silver reflector.
Every year, just after the holiday rush, we have a little get-together with my crew, some of the other photographers in town, the guys I bring in for videos and we have a nice meal. For a laugh, I create a little slideshow of all the BLOOPERS- bad expressions, guest picking their noses in the background of candid shots, flagpoles growing out of people's heads, bad exposures etc.- stuff that is so bad we cull them out before the clients ever see them. Last year I made a soundtrack of the Monty Python theme. Oh- It's all our stuff- we don't make fun of anyone else! Keeps us honest and humble!
Thanks again for posting your images- I hope more of the folks around here pitch in as much effort.
Best regards, Ed
I really like the idea of self critiquing and keeping a file of photographs for reference- the good ones and the bloopers!
I have been doing that for years. At one point there were so many prints and files that I began to run out of storage space both in hard copies and even on my computer's hard drive- I had to install a few external drives. So...some time in the 1980s I copied a work book form from a course I was studying and began to keep a notebook for my own purposes and for teaching my classes and training photographer for my business. I keep the forms in my camera room and the office. I would make some hand written notes and attach a "proof" of each image I wished to archive. I now have a software program to accommodate theses files.
I know that hand writing stuff is old fashioned but I still like to jot technical information down, sometimes on the spur of the moment kinda thing, as I am working. I have files on my portrait work, commercial assignments and wedding photography. The worksheet is set up so all I have to do is fill in the blanks or scribble out a fast diagram.
The attached sheet illustrates how to retain detail in bridal gowns by lighting them properly. By having the bride turn her body away from the main light source and the gently turin her head toward the main lighting pattern, the angle of incidence on the detailed part of the gown is such that the light skims across the embroidery, lace or other details and brings out the texture in the fabric even in difficult white on white tones. At the same time, this position makes for a graceful feminine pose. It also shows that the lower position of the flowers does not hide the bodice and waistline of the dress. Providing the exposure is correct, light in this manner, yields maximum detail in the "whites" with no special burning in during editing. This is a one light + reflector shot. A Photogenic Powerlight monolight fitted with a 24" soft-box provided the main light and the fill is simply a flat super-silver reflector.
Every year, just after the holiday rush, we have a little get-together with my crew, some of the other photographers in town, the guys I bring in for videos and we have a nice meal. For a laugh, I create a little slideshow of all the BLOOPERS- bad expressions, guest picking their noses in the background of candid shots, flagpoles growing out of people's heads, bad exposures etc.- stuff that is so bad we cull them out before the clients ever see them. Last year I made a soundtrack of the Monty Python theme. Oh- It's all our stuff- we don't make fun of anyone else! Keeps us honest and humble!
Thanks again for posting your images- I hope more of the folks around here pitch in as much effort.
Best regards, Ed
Jun 26, 2017 09:59:54 #
Looks like you all had a great weekend of sharing and learning. I have absolutely no internet access on weekends, if I'm not at a wedding, (not doing uhh at the wedding) I am at the lake, trying to put our lives back together after the flood.
Anyway, I just have one quick suggestion. Let me know what you all think, and I can make it happen.
How about if I make a "sticky" topic that stays at the top of the Wedding Forum that is for doing just what is going on here for Critiques? I think it will serve a couple of purposes. We can save the feelings of those that would like to share photos, but don't want, or like to get suggestions, critiques (even though we do our best to delete anything that is "troll like") It also would be an easy to find place to post and find new posts for CC.
What do you all think? I can leave it like it is, but I'm afraid that if posts for CC may get lost if they are buried in other posts.
Anyway, reply to this and let me know your thoughts.
bk
Anyway, I just have one quick suggestion. Let me know what you all think, and I can make it happen.
How about if I make a "sticky" topic that stays at the top of the Wedding Forum that is for doing just what is going on here for Critiques? I think it will serve a couple of purposes. We can save the feelings of those that would like to share photos, but don't want, or like to get suggestions, critiques (even though we do our best to delete anything that is "troll like") It also would be an easy to find place to post and find new posts for CC.
What do you all think? I can leave it like it is, but I'm afraid that if posts for CC may get lost if they are buried in other posts.
Anyway, reply to this and let me know your thoughts.
bk
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