Why do they "hate" us?
Jun 16, 2017 21:34:21 #
It occurs to me that there is a disproportionate degree of anti-professional photographer and anti-wedding photographer sentiment among the amateurs, enthusiasts, hobbyists and even some non-wedding pros, here on the Hog and many other online photo forums.
So...my initial question is “why do they hate us”?, however, in retrospect , perhaps “hate” is a too hyperbolic word- my bad- well I like to write dramatically! It does attract attention! So...let's replace the word “hate” with perhaps “disdain, dislike, have a dim view of, not too crazy about, disrespect, resent, don't really like or care for... or whatever”! We all say “hate” about lots of things but we don't really mean real malicious virulent hatred. I hate canned string beans so I don't eat them, does not mean that I wanna banish them from the face of the earth or dislike other folks who like them.
Admittedly, there are no daily anti-pro tirades ongoing but as soon as a topic or question arises that tries to define professional photography, let alone wedding photography, there is always lots of direct or implied negative commentary or inferences, disparaging comments and ingratiating stories about bad wedding shooters.
All-right! Granted! We have our “cheerleaders” and fans too but they seem to be in the minority.
In a recent thread that asked “what is a professional photographer”? Most folks tended to define the difference between amateurs and professionals is the fact that professionals receive remuneration for their services whereas amateurs do no necessarily collect a fee. Semantically speaking, that is true, however, many of the respondents resisted my notion that professionalism carries with it the expectation of competence, above average or superior performance and a high level of know-how when seasoned pros are compared to the average hobbyist.
So many posts contain “horror stories” of failed wedding coverages where the hired “pro” could have been easily out-performed by a talented amateur. Of course, in some isolated cases, this could very well be true, but in my experience of over 5 decades in the business, this scenario is not the norm, especially when the hired guy or gal is truly a trained and experienced professional. There are also reports of rude, invasive, arrogant and socially inept wedding shooters. Hopefully, this is again not the norm. Perhaps some folks select their hired photographer indiscriminately and, sadly enough, end up with someone that is truly incompetent or may be a technicality inclined photographer but one lacking in the required good people skills and that is truly unfortunate.
Then, of course, there is the old but prevalent complaints about wedding photographers who attempt to restrict the amateurs' activities at wedding celebrations. It used to be a minor annoyance but nowadays, the “cell-phone paparazzi” has become a major encumbrance to the work of the hired professional . I can understand that the bride and groom want to have their guests fully enjoy the event and doing some fun selfies and shots with which to gift the couple and their families is part of their enjoyment. Perhaps many people simply don't understand how problematic all of his can be and how this can ultimately affect the outcome of their professional photographer's performance and results. Inevitably, oftentimes theses activities get way out of hand. If the wedding couple and their families wish to allow everyone with a camera to have free run of the entire event, they may be inadvertently sabotaging the efforts of their own hired professional and thereby jeopardize the investment that accompanies that business relationship
Some pros, here online, complain that the guests are shooting over their shoulders and posting the images online before the pros can get their images out to the clients. Some of the guests, many of them are members here, think the pro's are worried about loosing sales. Sometimes both parties to the argument are operating under a misconception. In my own situation and like just about any pro who is worth his or her salt, are well compensated for our work, deposits and retainer fees are secured well in advance and we do not take on major undertakings, like weddings, on speculation. The guest are not really “stealing” our poses in that their images will never be the same as those of the seasoned pro. In formal portraiture, the camera angle is critical. Anything shot off the most ideal camera/subject axis will be far from perfect, let alone light, composition and savvy editing.
What is critical for the pro is being able to capture peak expressions, maintain undivided attention and totally control eye direction of each and every subject. This can be especially difficult in family and bridal party group photographs Shifted and closed eyes can ruin otherwise successful images. When the guests with cameras are darting around, vying for positions, and worst of all actions, shouting out commands to “smile and look here” make any kind of professional direction nearly impossible. We are usually working in a very restricted time frame and that exacerbates he difficulty. Jumping in front of the pro during the ceremony and many “must have” reception events- well honestly, resourceful pros can work around theses things but is not the optimum working conditions for the best quality outcome. I am sure that most of theses guests with cameras and devices are nice folks and are well meaning. Very few of them are obnoxious purposely disruptive. Common sense dedicates that the average person would not want to become obtrusive during a religious or civil ceremony, violate the sanctity of a church service, go into the kitchen and supervise the chef or bother the catering staff or set up a karaoke machine and upstage the musicians or the DJ. Sometimes though- give folks a camera or a cell phone and they somehow start to run interference with the wedding photographer. Funny? Yes, that is unless you are the professional photographer!
The other day, I ran across a thread here on the Hog, where the OP wondered why some photographers don't like being photographed, especially while they are working weddings in public spaces- like parks and botanical gardens. A lengthy debate ensued about being fair game when people are in open public areas.
Nowadays we live in a litigious society, that means everyone is threatening to sue everyone else, that is, until they discover the costs of legal fees, So many folks think they are amateur “lawyers”! Well, fact is, that in public places in most North American jurisdictions, when you are in public places you are fair game for photographers. Legalities aside, I believe in common sense, good manners, honesty and courtesy. I don't like disturbing folks when they are working or just enjoying themselves in a public place or anywhere else. If I want to photograph someone badly enough, I will simply approach them and ask permission. It is truly surprising to what extent most folks will cooperate with you and accommodate you when you are kind and considerate. If I am out on a commercial assignment, I am quite willing to arrange for payment of professional modeling fees or make certain that people who pose for me are duly compensated in any paid project in return for their signing off on proper model and property release forms.
So...my fellow comrades in arms- herein the wedding forum, I need your help! What can we do to better co-exist with out amateur friends, the marauding armies of wedding guests, the public, each other. Please post your ideas, suggestions and remedies. We all wanna be LOVED not HATED!
With kindest regards, Ed
So...my initial question is “why do they hate us”?, however, in retrospect , perhaps “hate” is a too hyperbolic word- my bad- well I like to write dramatically! It does attract attention! So...let's replace the word “hate” with perhaps “disdain, dislike, have a dim view of, not too crazy about, disrespect, resent, don't really like or care for... or whatever”! We all say “hate” about lots of things but we don't really mean real malicious virulent hatred. I hate canned string beans so I don't eat them, does not mean that I wanna banish them from the face of the earth or dislike other folks who like them.
Admittedly, there are no daily anti-pro tirades ongoing but as soon as a topic or question arises that tries to define professional photography, let alone wedding photography, there is always lots of direct or implied negative commentary or inferences, disparaging comments and ingratiating stories about bad wedding shooters.
All-right! Granted! We have our “cheerleaders” and fans too but they seem to be in the minority.
In a recent thread that asked “what is a professional photographer”? Most folks tended to define the difference between amateurs and professionals is the fact that professionals receive remuneration for their services whereas amateurs do no necessarily collect a fee. Semantically speaking, that is true, however, many of the respondents resisted my notion that professionalism carries with it the expectation of competence, above average or superior performance and a high level of know-how when seasoned pros are compared to the average hobbyist.
So many posts contain “horror stories” of failed wedding coverages where the hired “pro” could have been easily out-performed by a talented amateur. Of course, in some isolated cases, this could very well be true, but in my experience of over 5 decades in the business, this scenario is not the norm, especially when the hired guy or gal is truly a trained and experienced professional. There are also reports of rude, invasive, arrogant and socially inept wedding shooters. Hopefully, this is again not the norm. Perhaps some folks select their hired photographer indiscriminately and, sadly enough, end up with someone that is truly incompetent or may be a technicality inclined photographer but one lacking in the required good people skills and that is truly unfortunate.
Then, of course, there is the old but prevalent complaints about wedding photographers who attempt to restrict the amateurs' activities at wedding celebrations. It used to be a minor annoyance but nowadays, the “cell-phone paparazzi” has become a major encumbrance to the work of the hired professional . I can understand that the bride and groom want to have their guests fully enjoy the event and doing some fun selfies and shots with which to gift the couple and their families is part of their enjoyment. Perhaps many people simply don't understand how problematic all of his can be and how this can ultimately affect the outcome of their professional photographer's performance and results. Inevitably, oftentimes theses activities get way out of hand. If the wedding couple and their families wish to allow everyone with a camera to have free run of the entire event, they may be inadvertently sabotaging the efforts of their own hired professional and thereby jeopardize the investment that accompanies that business relationship
Some pros, here online, complain that the guests are shooting over their shoulders and posting the images online before the pros can get their images out to the clients. Some of the guests, many of them are members here, think the pro's are worried about loosing sales. Sometimes both parties to the argument are operating under a misconception. In my own situation and like just about any pro who is worth his or her salt, are well compensated for our work, deposits and retainer fees are secured well in advance and we do not take on major undertakings, like weddings, on speculation. The guest are not really “stealing” our poses in that their images will never be the same as those of the seasoned pro. In formal portraiture, the camera angle is critical. Anything shot off the most ideal camera/subject axis will be far from perfect, let alone light, composition and savvy editing.
What is critical for the pro is being able to capture peak expressions, maintain undivided attention and totally control eye direction of each and every subject. This can be especially difficult in family and bridal party group photographs Shifted and closed eyes can ruin otherwise successful images. When the guests with cameras are darting around, vying for positions, and worst of all actions, shouting out commands to “smile and look here” make any kind of professional direction nearly impossible. We are usually working in a very restricted time frame and that exacerbates he difficulty. Jumping in front of the pro during the ceremony and many “must have” reception events- well honestly, resourceful pros can work around theses things but is not the optimum working conditions for the best quality outcome. I am sure that most of theses guests with cameras and devices are nice folks and are well meaning. Very few of them are obnoxious purposely disruptive. Common sense dedicates that the average person would not want to become obtrusive during a religious or civil ceremony, violate the sanctity of a church service, go into the kitchen and supervise the chef or bother the catering staff or set up a karaoke machine and upstage the musicians or the DJ. Sometimes though- give folks a camera or a cell phone and they somehow start to run interference with the wedding photographer. Funny? Yes, that is unless you are the professional photographer!
The other day, I ran across a thread here on the Hog, where the OP wondered why some photographers don't like being photographed, especially while they are working weddings in public spaces- like parks and botanical gardens. A lengthy debate ensued about being fair game when people are in open public areas.
Nowadays we live in a litigious society, that means everyone is threatening to sue everyone else, that is, until they discover the costs of legal fees, So many folks think they are amateur “lawyers”! Well, fact is, that in public places in most North American jurisdictions, when you are in public places you are fair game for photographers. Legalities aside, I believe in common sense, good manners, honesty and courtesy. I don't like disturbing folks when they are working or just enjoying themselves in a public place or anywhere else. If I want to photograph someone badly enough, I will simply approach them and ask permission. It is truly surprising to what extent most folks will cooperate with you and accommodate you when you are kind and considerate. If I am out on a commercial assignment, I am quite willing to arrange for payment of professional modeling fees or make certain that people who pose for me are duly compensated in any paid project in return for their signing off on proper model and property release forms.
So...my fellow comrades in arms- herein the wedding forum, I need your help! What can we do to better co-exist with out amateur friends, the marauding armies of wedding guests, the public, each other. Please post your ideas, suggestions and remedies. We all wanna be LOVED not HATED!
With kindest regards, Ed
Jun 17, 2017 15:08:08 #
Well said Ed.
I've only been shooting weddings for about 50 odd years, so really don't have any answers to handling this dilemma. What I have been doing is taking the bridal party and family to an undisclosed area for the formals where I am able to eliminate the "paparazzi" and make an agreement with the few onlookers that they could shoot away AFTER I got my shots of each group setting. Part of the agreement is that all cameras are "hidden" until I give the word. I am not concerned with the "competition", but need to be sure that I have their full attention during the shoot.
The rest of the wedding in the church and reception are a free for all that is next to impossible to control in my opinion.
I've only been shooting weddings for about 50 odd years, so really don't have any answers to handling this dilemma. What I have been doing is taking the bridal party and family to an undisclosed area for the formals where I am able to eliminate the "paparazzi" and make an agreement with the few onlookers that they could shoot away AFTER I got my shots of each group setting. Part of the agreement is that all cameras are "hidden" until I give the word. I am not concerned with the "competition", but need to be sure that I have their full attention during the shoot.
The rest of the wedding in the church and reception are a free for all that is next to impossible to control in my opinion.
Jun 17, 2017 16:14:37 #
Ed, as I think about it logically to understand the root of this problem we need to look at others providing a service at the wedding. Negative feelings about the minister/priest, of course not. He is providing spiritual guidance and presiding over the ceremony. Everyone loves the bartender. He makes our favorite drinks and makes us happy. The DJ? He is great! playing some great dance music and takes requests. The flower provider arrives before the ceremony and makes everything beautiful. No negative feelings there.
Now what are the differences between the professional photographer and the above folks? One they are all doing something that the attendees or participants do not have the capability to do. Two, they are providing immediate happiness for everyone. The photographer is a little different. Why, because everyone thinks they are a great photographer and they all have a cameral on them that takes great pictures in their mind. They also are not seeing any benefit from that photographer lurking around with those flashy things. Most realize that the photographer will provide some great images to the couple eventually, but they are tempted into receiving immediate satisfaction by pulling out the iPad or iPhone or maybe even a consumer camera. These things whether we like it or not are eroding away the professional stature of the wedding photographer.
There are many approaches to this challenging situation and most of them were discussed over in those threads you mentioned. Mine is to essentially get to know everyone possible from the entire wedding party, family, and guests, kids and family pets as well. I do this through pre-meetings and spending time at the rehearsal. Also hanging with the bridal party and groomsmen before the ceremony. I usually warn the couple that I will be getting to know everyone. Those I don't get to meet prior, I usually get the skinny on them from others. I interact with them throughout the day. There is a mutual respect that grows from that and if I need to say something like "OK get your shot, then step aside because I need their eyes" it goes pretty well. I failed to mention I try to develop a relationship with the other providers mentioned above as well. The timing of everything works so well when we are on the same page. Weddings are tough and of course things will go wrong, chaos can ensue, and shots will be missed, but this is how I deal with it.
Now what are the differences between the professional photographer and the above folks? One they are all doing something that the attendees or participants do not have the capability to do. Two, they are providing immediate happiness for everyone. The photographer is a little different. Why, because everyone thinks they are a great photographer and they all have a cameral on them that takes great pictures in their mind. They also are not seeing any benefit from that photographer lurking around with those flashy things. Most realize that the photographer will provide some great images to the couple eventually, but they are tempted into receiving immediate satisfaction by pulling out the iPad or iPhone or maybe even a consumer camera. These things whether we like it or not are eroding away the professional stature of the wedding photographer.
There are many approaches to this challenging situation and most of them were discussed over in those threads you mentioned. Mine is to essentially get to know everyone possible from the entire wedding party, family, and guests, kids and family pets as well. I do this through pre-meetings and spending time at the rehearsal. Also hanging with the bridal party and groomsmen before the ceremony. I usually warn the couple that I will be getting to know everyone. Those I don't get to meet prior, I usually get the skinny on them from others. I interact with them throughout the day. There is a mutual respect that grows from that and if I need to say something like "OK get your shot, then step aside because I need their eyes" it goes pretty well. I failed to mention I try to develop a relationship with the other providers mentioned above as well. The timing of everything works so well when we are on the same page. Weddings are tough and of course things will go wrong, chaos can ensue, and shots will be missed, but this is how I deal with it.
Jun 18, 2017 12:15:56 #
The problem is we live in a generation (Millennial) that wants instant gratification. Heck there are guest who are uploading during the ceremony.
I usually have the talk with the B&G months ahead, usually before they even hire me. I mention the unplugged ceremony and typically state guest should be here to enjoy this special occasion, not to be the photographer. Sometimes that works, if it does not I ask for permission at the time of hiring if I can take a bit more on-hands control over the actual posed photographer time. This means to have the talk with everyone lingering that I want to setup the shot, take my photo and then allow them to have a moment to take their pictures, usually the B&G have no issue with this, in fact they get it.
During the reception I have no issue with guest snapping away. I know what it takes to take a good picture and with rare exception guest don't have the knowledge or equipment to pull off great shots. This is where knowing how to use off-camera flash really pays off as your pictures will have a dramatic look that no guest will pull off. Want to separate yourself from other wedding photographers? ... Learn how to use off-camera flash.
The unknown 'photographer' is the tough one. They are usually a family member and you have no idea that they are going to wander around and take pictures during the ceremony. It's hard to engage this person as they feel they have a special licence to wander around because of their relationship to the bride or groom. I've had them walk behind the officiant and place their iPad next to their shoulder. Best rest assured this 'unknown' situation is mentioned in my contract.metures
I usually have the talk with the B&G months ahead, usually before they even hire me. I mention the unplugged ceremony and typically state guest should be here to enjoy this special occasion, not to be the photographer. Sometimes that works, if it does not I ask for permission at the time of hiring if I can take a bit more on-hands control over the actual posed photographer time. This means to have the talk with everyone lingering that I want to setup the shot, take my photo and then allow them to have a moment to take their pictures, usually the B&G have no issue with this, in fact they get it.
During the reception I have no issue with guest snapping away. I know what it takes to take a good picture and with rare exception guest don't have the knowledge or equipment to pull off great shots. This is where knowing how to use off-camera flash really pays off as your pictures will have a dramatic look that no guest will pull off. Want to separate yourself from other wedding photographers? ... Learn how to use off-camera flash.
The unknown 'photographer' is the tough one. They are usually a family member and you have no idea that they are going to wander around and take pictures during the ceremony. It's hard to engage this person as they feel they have a special licence to wander around because of their relationship to the bride or groom. I've had them walk behind the officiant and place their iPad next to their shoulder. Best rest assured this 'unknown' situation is mentioned in my contract.metures
Jun 18, 2017 19:57:06 #
Wedding Guy- Beercat and Jay! Thanks for your helpful and wise replies. I suppose that we all agree that solid advance planning with all the parties concerned is an important key to successful and smooth flowing wedding photography. If everyone is on the same page, less is likely to go wrong. Of course, this kind of planning greatly depends on whether or not the bride and groom are up for it. Some folks put more energy and effort into their weekly shopping list for the grocery store that their willingness to seriously consult with their wedding photographer. Every good photographer/salesperson needs to qualify their potential clients. Personally speaking, my main qualification is the client's willingness to plan with me and advise me as to what their expectations are in the areas of coverage, formal portraiture, photojournalistic coverage and others nuances of style and method. I need this information and cooperation in order to give them my best work and ensure their enjoyment of every aspect of their wedding photography.
I wholeheartedly agree with Beercat and Jay when they speaks of people's responsiveness to instant gratification (food, booze and entertainment) rather than the long term benefits that can be derived by fully cooperating with their wedding photographer and making his or her job somewhat easier. As Beercat has pointed out, the seasoned and experienced pros can work around less than perfect working conditions- we do that all the time- it comes with the territory!
As self employed wedding photographers, we are interdependent businesspersons and we all know that the job entails more that just doing the photography. We are all concerned with sales, pricing, promotional and advertising concepts, bookkeeping, equipment issues and much more. The phrase “chief cook and bottle washer” come to mind. Perhaps one aspect of successful business that is sometimes ignored or somehow overlooked is the construct of PUBLIC RELATIONS (PR)!
I define PR as the good will and advertising that MONEY CAN NOT BUY!
This is what my other colleagues here mentioned about communicating, cooperating, networking with and helping and respecting all of the officials, vendors and other service people that we work alongside of in the wedding industry. Specifically, I am referring to the clergy and other officiators, caterers, hotel and venue operators, florists, couturiers (bridal gown designers and suppliers), formal-wear suppliers, limo services, invitation printers, wedding planners, party rental folks and jewelers. For many years, I have made it my business to visit and connect with all of theses folks. I made a steady habit of supplying many of them with photographs I made at various weddings that show (signed) photographs of their products and services, illustrated in their best light! Over the years, many of theses business had accumulated albums full of my photographs. Some had my large display prints hanging in the walls of their their showrooms and offices. Of course, this ongoing habit cost me some time, materials and money but this was time and money well spent. No expenditure in print, broadcast or trade show advertising would have generated as much interest and word of mouth referrals in my targeted clientele and service area. One day a couple walked into my studio, the groom-to-be reluctantly took out his checkbook and sarcastically but smilingly asked me if “anyone else in town offered wedding photography”. Seems he and his bride noticed my wedding photography everywhere they shopped or went to make their wedding arrangements.
Another aspect of PR should be obvious. Every time we appear at a wedding we are in the public eye. How we function, work, interact with our clients and their guests, the officials in churches, synagogues and other ceremony venues, all the aforementioned vendors and service people, even the caretakers at public and gardens, is of the utmost importance. How we act, dress for the occasion, relate to everyone and how we respect our surroundings is under more observation and scrutiny than one might think.
Of course, we need to foster great relationships with our clients but with good PR we are continuously fostering those great relationships in a broader sense. It can be pleasantly surprising, to some folks, how an extended hand with a smile, kindness and respect can garner all kinds of cooperation. Simple words like “excuse me, please, and thank you can be magical- even with some folks who tend to be a bit crusty or grouchy. Sometimes just asking permission is enough to get folks to see things your way.
Believe me, even after many years in the business, it's a great and reassuring feeling when you walk into a house of worship or a reception venue where, like the (Cheers theme) song says, “...where everyone knows your name” or at least your reputation for being a consummate professional who will get the job done in the most ethical, compassionate and sympathetic manner. This kind of atmosphere makes even the most difficult circumstances or environments much easier to contend with, surmount and come out with a great job under our belts.
Theses days,most of my studio's wedding work comes in through referrals from past clients and other venders. The good PR has served us well.
As far as our relationships with each other, here on the forum, are concerned, allot of the same benevolent attitudes and approaches that we all take with our public and our clients should holds true in our own interactions. There are allot of folks, online in general, that get pretty cantankerous with other people who express ideas, concepts, methods or policies opposite to their own. Perhaps it is the ongoing caustic environment on the political scene, nowadays, that is bringing this on. People become overly polarized and begin to engage in name-calling, bullying, personal attacks and even incite others to commit violent acts. The results are counterproductive, sad and sometimes tragic. Minimally, when there is so much angst and rhetoric, nothing get resolved, accomplished, taught and learned and consequently, nothing gets done! Many times, the original question or any valid answers becomes lost in the mayhem. Well- we ain't shooting at each other or throwing punches but we would do well to stick to friendly debate, exchange of ideas and a good helping of compromise.
My theory has always been, when contributing to online forums, is that when so called “flame wars” occur not only are folks insulting each other but they are insulting the intelligence of all the other people that are reading on. It is much more constructive to simply lay out our views in a polite and professional manner and allow and invite others to make up their own minds, add their comments, chime in with fresh thoughts and bring people together.
Actually, the WEDDING section IS the most peaceful part of the HOG- we should continue to set a good example. Hopefully more folks will come up here and join in.
Perhaps someday, we can add in our own CRITIQUE department. I would hope that would not be playing with gasoline and matches.
With kindest regards, Ed
I wholeheartedly agree with Beercat and Jay when they speaks of people's responsiveness to instant gratification (food, booze and entertainment) rather than the long term benefits that can be derived by fully cooperating with their wedding photographer and making his or her job somewhat easier. As Beercat has pointed out, the seasoned and experienced pros can work around less than perfect working conditions- we do that all the time- it comes with the territory!
As self employed wedding photographers, we are interdependent businesspersons and we all know that the job entails more that just doing the photography. We are all concerned with sales, pricing, promotional and advertising concepts, bookkeeping, equipment issues and much more. The phrase “chief cook and bottle washer” come to mind. Perhaps one aspect of successful business that is sometimes ignored or somehow overlooked is the construct of PUBLIC RELATIONS (PR)!
I define PR as the good will and advertising that MONEY CAN NOT BUY!
This is what my other colleagues here mentioned about communicating, cooperating, networking with and helping and respecting all of the officials, vendors and other service people that we work alongside of in the wedding industry. Specifically, I am referring to the clergy and other officiators, caterers, hotel and venue operators, florists, couturiers (bridal gown designers and suppliers), formal-wear suppliers, limo services, invitation printers, wedding planners, party rental folks and jewelers. For many years, I have made it my business to visit and connect with all of theses folks. I made a steady habit of supplying many of them with photographs I made at various weddings that show (signed) photographs of their products and services, illustrated in their best light! Over the years, many of theses business had accumulated albums full of my photographs. Some had my large display prints hanging in the walls of their their showrooms and offices. Of course, this ongoing habit cost me some time, materials and money but this was time and money well spent. No expenditure in print, broadcast or trade show advertising would have generated as much interest and word of mouth referrals in my targeted clientele and service area. One day a couple walked into my studio, the groom-to-be reluctantly took out his checkbook and sarcastically but smilingly asked me if “anyone else in town offered wedding photography”. Seems he and his bride noticed my wedding photography everywhere they shopped or went to make their wedding arrangements.
Another aspect of PR should be obvious. Every time we appear at a wedding we are in the public eye. How we function, work, interact with our clients and their guests, the officials in churches, synagogues and other ceremony venues, all the aforementioned vendors and service people, even the caretakers at public and gardens, is of the utmost importance. How we act, dress for the occasion, relate to everyone and how we respect our surroundings is under more observation and scrutiny than one might think.
Of course, we need to foster great relationships with our clients but with good PR we are continuously fostering those great relationships in a broader sense. It can be pleasantly surprising, to some folks, how an extended hand with a smile, kindness and respect can garner all kinds of cooperation. Simple words like “excuse me, please, and thank you can be magical- even with some folks who tend to be a bit crusty or grouchy. Sometimes just asking permission is enough to get folks to see things your way.
Believe me, even after many years in the business, it's a great and reassuring feeling when you walk into a house of worship or a reception venue where, like the (Cheers theme) song says, “...where everyone knows your name” or at least your reputation for being a consummate professional who will get the job done in the most ethical, compassionate and sympathetic manner. This kind of atmosphere makes even the most difficult circumstances or environments much easier to contend with, surmount and come out with a great job under our belts.
Theses days,most of my studio's wedding work comes in through referrals from past clients and other venders. The good PR has served us well.
As far as our relationships with each other, here on the forum, are concerned, allot of the same benevolent attitudes and approaches that we all take with our public and our clients should holds true in our own interactions. There are allot of folks, online in general, that get pretty cantankerous with other people who express ideas, concepts, methods or policies opposite to their own. Perhaps it is the ongoing caustic environment on the political scene, nowadays, that is bringing this on. People become overly polarized and begin to engage in name-calling, bullying, personal attacks and even incite others to commit violent acts. The results are counterproductive, sad and sometimes tragic. Minimally, when there is so much angst and rhetoric, nothing get resolved, accomplished, taught and learned and consequently, nothing gets done! Many times, the original question or any valid answers becomes lost in the mayhem. Well- we ain't shooting at each other or throwing punches but we would do well to stick to friendly debate, exchange of ideas and a good helping of compromise.
My theory has always been, when contributing to online forums, is that when so called “flame wars” occur not only are folks insulting each other but they are insulting the intelligence of all the other people that are reading on. It is much more constructive to simply lay out our views in a polite and professional manner and allow and invite others to make up their own minds, add their comments, chime in with fresh thoughts and bring people together.
Actually, the WEDDING section IS the most peaceful part of the HOG- we should continue to set a good example. Hopefully more folks will come up here and join in.
Perhaps someday, we can add in our own CRITIQUE department. I would hope that would not be playing with gasoline and matches.
With kindest regards, Ed
Jun 19, 2017 11:44:40 #
OK Here's my take. As of now, I can't access UHH from my work computer any more, so replies will be much shorter. (Stop the applause, I know I'm "windy" sometimes)
First, my opinion on your first question on "why they hate us." If you are talking about other photographers, I honestly think of us as the "weird kids in school" People just don't seem to "like" what they don't understand. It starts out in childhood, and continues. I mean really, we enjoy everything that goes along with weddings....who does that? Seriously, some of it may be jealousy. In my humble opinion, nothing makes for someone being able to see light, and come up with compositions quickly, like shooting a wedding. Portrait work, you have much more time and control of what you are doing, and where you are doing it. Also, I think that maybe because we tend to charge so much more per event, than other types of photographers, I think that they (wrongly) think that we consider ourselves prima donnas. Just like a lot of the general public, they don't understand that our work doesn't stop after the shoot, or even just a couple of hours of editing. Culling and editing several hundred (or even thousands in some people's cases), vs. maybe an hour or 2 of editing a portrait session. The time it takes to put together albums and other products, etc... just aren't thought of.
As for the general public, there are still those out there that understand the value of what we do. They may not understand why it costs so much, but I do my best to educate them. If they get it, I will work with them, but lately, if I get any push back on costs, I just politely find a way to decline. I had someone about a week ago push back and say something like "all you have to do is stand around and push buttons" I suggested she contact friends with iPhones, and she would probably be happy. Even after educating someone like that, they would be the ones that you could never satisfy.
I don't think people "hate us" but I do think people dont' "get us." I've created lifelong friendships and done multiple generations of weddings and portrait work for a lot of my past clients. Those clients "love" me. Those people are out there, and those are the ones I want to work with.
As for my post under the "photographing the photographer" I think I was misunderstood. I said "maybe the photographers thought you were stealing their shot." That stuff doesn't bother me. I'm bold enough to ask people nicely to move out of the way, and very rarely have any issues at all. If they are behind me, or whatever. I just politely ask the subjects to make sure they keep looking at me, because these are the photos that the b&g paid for. That's all it ever takes. I wasn't suggesting that I thought people were stealing MY shots, I was just suggesting why some of those "public place" photographers were getting upset with the shooter. Just from posts I've read on other forums in the past.
so much for a short reply...oops
First, my opinion on your first question on "why they hate us." If you are talking about other photographers, I honestly think of us as the "weird kids in school" People just don't seem to "like" what they don't understand. It starts out in childhood, and continues. I mean really, we enjoy everything that goes along with weddings....who does that? Seriously, some of it may be jealousy. In my humble opinion, nothing makes for someone being able to see light, and come up with compositions quickly, like shooting a wedding. Portrait work, you have much more time and control of what you are doing, and where you are doing it. Also, I think that maybe because we tend to charge so much more per event, than other types of photographers, I think that they (wrongly) think that we consider ourselves prima donnas. Just like a lot of the general public, they don't understand that our work doesn't stop after the shoot, or even just a couple of hours of editing. Culling and editing several hundred (or even thousands in some people's cases), vs. maybe an hour or 2 of editing a portrait session. The time it takes to put together albums and other products, etc... just aren't thought of.
As for the general public, there are still those out there that understand the value of what we do. They may not understand why it costs so much, but I do my best to educate them. If they get it, I will work with them, but lately, if I get any push back on costs, I just politely find a way to decline. I had someone about a week ago push back and say something like "all you have to do is stand around and push buttons" I suggested she contact friends with iPhones, and she would probably be happy. Even after educating someone like that, they would be the ones that you could never satisfy.
I don't think people "hate us" but I do think people dont' "get us." I've created lifelong friendships and done multiple generations of weddings and portrait work for a lot of my past clients. Those clients "love" me. Those people are out there, and those are the ones I want to work with.
As for my post under the "photographing the photographer" I think I was misunderstood. I said "maybe the photographers thought you were stealing their shot." That stuff doesn't bother me. I'm bold enough to ask people nicely to move out of the way, and very rarely have any issues at all. If they are behind me, or whatever. I just politely ask the subjects to make sure they keep looking at me, because these are the photos that the b&g paid for. That's all it ever takes. I wasn't suggesting that I thought people were stealing MY shots, I was just suggesting why some of those "public place" photographers were getting upset with the shooter. Just from posts I've read on other forums in the past.
so much for a short reply...oops
Jun 19, 2017 14:10:53 #
I forgot to mention... As for the "what makes a photographer, a PROFESSIONAL photographer" my reply is not just someone who gets paid, or as most in other sections say "make the majority of their income" from photography. In my opinion, a real professional, in any profession, is a person who acts in a professional manner, continues education or training to stay at the top of his/her game, and always strives to get better. Lastly, they follow the rules of their state/municipality. The "non pros" out there (the $200 run and gun shooters from Craigslist) even if they make ALL their income from photography, are still not what I would consider "real professionals"
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