Torture: It's generally accepted that torture is worthless for getting accurate information. Still, people keep using and defending it. I think a big reason for its popularity is human...

jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY

It's generally accepted that torture is worthless for getting accurate information. Still, people keep using and defending it. I think a big reason for its popularity is human nature. We like being mean and seeing others suffer, especially when we think we can justify it.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/we-rsquo-ve-known-for-400-years-that-torture-doesn-rsquo-t-work/

lesdmd Loc: Middleton Wi via N.Y.C. & Cleveland

There are also many parents who believe in corporal punishment. The problem, as I see it, is that with compliant children, it works; just as torture works on some fragile combatants. What is ignored is the large number of children who are not moved by physical violence and take away the lesson to apply it on their children; and the captives who resist torture or lie their way through it. My experience informs me that most people respond far better to kindness than to abuse. (I await attacks by those who disagree ;-) )

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

jerryc41 wrote:

It's generally accepted that torture is worthless for getting accurate information. Still, people keep using and defending it. I think a big reason for its popularity is human nature. We like being mean and seeing others suffer, especially when we think we can justify it.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/we-rsquo-ve-known-for-400-years-that-torture-doesn-rsquo-t-work/

Actually, it's not "generally accepted" at all.

Some articles say that and some say the opposite.

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

lesdmd wrote:

There are also many parents who believe in corpora... (show quote)

No attacks unless you think that disagreement is attacking.

Corporal punishment certainly does work, generations of kids (who are now adults) will tell you that it does. As for how many kids are not moved by physical violence? I wouldn't say it's "large number" if my own experience and those who I'm acquainted with either in person or otherwise is any indication. Kids who just don't care about getting spanked and won't change their behavior in response to that are few and far between.

lautenk2

lesdmd wrote:

There are also many parents who believe in corpora... (show quote)

And here's the first attack. Perhaps your experience has never included being personally in a gunfight with a large number of participants on both sides. Use your imagination a bit, when your primary goal becomes survival, the relative importance of being a nice person might be less, a lot less. Kindness might well be inappropriate if not suicidal. War is neither equivalent to a high school football game (many people like to make a "fairness" argument here) nor to child discipline. So I think your analogy is weak.

lesdmd Loc: Middleton Wi via N.Y.C. & Cleveland

lautenk2 wrote:

And here's the first attack. Perhaps your experie... (show quote)

You are conflating a situation where self defense/preservation is the only option, and hitting a child or abusing a prisoner where there is little pressure and other options exist.

lesdmd Loc: Middleton Wi via N.Y.C. & Cleveland

rpavich wrote:

No attacks unless you think that disagreement is a... (show quote)

Your evidence is more anecdotal than scientific. Everyone will, at least temporarily, respond to being disciplined with violence. The question is the lesson they take away. I would argue that they learn that they can be subjugated by strength, but little to nothing about whether the person applying the force is right to do so.

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

lesdmd wrote:

Your evidence is more anecdotal than scientific. Everyone will, at least temporarily, respond to being disciplined with violence. The question is the lesson they take away.

Not it isn't.

the question was "does torture work" and you extended that to mean spanking also, and I said it does.

Question answered.

No need for a scientific method...just ask a few generations of folks.

Quote:

I would argue that they learn that they can be subjugated by strength, but little to nothing about whether the person applying the force is right to do so.

No idea what your point was there.

DavidJon Loc: Ada, Oklahoma

A soldier (or politician) who has never tortured an enemy combatant will tell you torture does not work. A soldier (or operative) who has tortured an enemy combatant for information will tell you torture does work. Take your pick.

lautenk2

lesdmd wrote:

You are conflating a situation where self defense/preservation is the only option, and hitting a child or abusing a prisoner where there is little pressure and other options exist.

Where did you get the idea that I'm discussing an issue involving "little pressure." One fundamental assumption here is that we're literally talking about life or death, so there's lots of pressure, and "other options" involve more life or death. I was pointing out that sensibilities and actions appropriate to fairness and child discipline in normal life are inappropriate in war (you've been following the news, right? Our adversaries think it's a war regardless of what we say). Indeed, history shows that people successful at one of these things are often not especially good at the other. Another way to say it is that many actions necessary to survive a war are distasteful at every organizational level from individual to flight to squadron to joint to national to coalition (yeah, I skipped a few). So I don't think I conflated anything, and your comment doesn't make sense to me even though it sounds nice.

lesdmd Loc: Middleton Wi via N.Y.C. & Cleveland

lautenk2 wrote:

Where did you get the idea that I'm discussing an ... (show quote)

Your words: "your primary goal becomes survival" (high pressure situation) and I say when disciplining a child or interrogating a prisoner one has the time to stop and think and act calmly (little pressure to act instantly). It may indeed be necessary to commit atrocities in War, especially if your enemy is doing so. The point is that the evidence, despite what another poster suggests, is overwhelming that information gained through torture is unreliable. Yes, it works in some cases, but there are more effective and less barbaric ways to get someone to cooperate.

lesdmd Loc: Middleton Wi via N.Y.C. & Cleveland

DavidJon wrote:

A soldier (or politician) who has never tortured an enemy combatant will tell you torture does not work. A soldier (or operative) who has tortured an enemy combatant for information will tell you torture does work. Take your pick.

A convenient aphorism, but professionals whose job is to elicit information come mostly agree that torture does not work. I would never say that torture never works. There is the classic case of two terrorists having knowledge of a bomb that will soon detonate. The interrogator walked up to one and shot him in the head and then calmly asked the other for the location of the bomb. He was given the information. And I would even concede that when many lives are at stake, this approach is justifiable. However, if there is no urgency, no way to immediately test the accuracy of the information provided, torture is ineffective.

lesdmd Loc: Middleton Wi via N.Y.C. & Cleveland

"the question was "does torture work" and you extended that to mean spanking also, and I said it does.

Question answered.

No need for a scientific method...just ask a few generations of folks."

Really?! The question is answered because you say so? Science doesn't care about a few generations of folks.
It gathers large amounts of data and then, without any preconceived notions, draws some conclusions.
More than a few generations used to believe witches could be exposed by seeing if they floated on water when weighted down with rocks.
Incidentally, I would never argue that a "swat on the rear" is unreasonable, although I think carefully chosen words and consequences for inappropriate behavior work better - - - without the concern that the child will grow up fearing rather than respecting the "spanker". My other concern is that some parent's don't know when to stop applying the paddle.

I realize that some would argue that "fear" is better than "respect", and if that is your belief we will find little ground on which to agree.

MtnMan Loc: ID

My favorite quote in this article is " for ethical reasons there are no scientific studies of torture."

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674743908

That sums it up for me.

lesdmd Loc: Middleton Wi via N.Y.C. & Cleveland

MtnMan wrote:

My favorite quote in this article is " for ethical reasons there are no scientific studies of torture."

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674743908

That sums it up for me.

Did you conveniently leave these quotes from the article out of your summary? "Torture may be effective in forcing confessions, as in Stalin’s Russia. But if we want information that we can depend on to save lives, O’Mara writes, our model should be Napoleon: “It has always been recognized that this way of interrogating men, by putting them to torture, produces nothing worthwhile." And the title of the article: "Why Torture Doesn’t Work"