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Apr 3, 2017 20:22:50   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
BobHartung wrote:
Other than the White Balance, I have been under the assumption that a 16-bit TIFF file had all the information of a RAW file, ...

The not so obvious difference is that color is encoded into the RAW file using a Bayer Color Filter Array, while the TIFF file uses three channel RGB encoding.

Consider that the TIFF data has three 16 bit data values, or 48 bits, that define the color of a single pixel.

Now consider the RAW data, where each pixel's color is defined with a matrix of 14 bit values. The matrix can be as small as 4x4, which produces relatively "poor" color accuracy. If an entire image were decoded using 4x4 matrices that would be 4x4x14 bits, or 224 bits per pixel. More than 4 times the number of bits used in the best TIFF. If a more typical 16x16 matrix is used to decode the RAW data, that is 16x16x14 bits per color... or some 3584 bits per pixel! The RAW file is using 75 times as many bits to determine the color.

But we need to be careful not to over judge what that means, because not all of those bits have as much weight with a Bayer Color Filter Array as do the channels with an RGB bitmap. So it isn't really 75 times better... probably only 25 times when using a 16x16 matrix and merely just barely better when using a 4x4 matrix.

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Apr 4, 2017 01:19:56   #
OhD Loc: West Richland, WA
 
See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG. Of general interest are "Typical Usage", "Effects of JPG Compression".

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Apr 4, 2017 07:51:27   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Apaflo wrote:
... Now consider the RAW data, where each pixel's color is defined with a matrix of 14 bit values. The matrix can be as small as 4x4, which produces relatively "poor" color accuracy. If an entire image were decoded using 4x4 matrices that would be 4x4x14 bits, or 224 bits per pixel. ...

Actually as small as a 2x2 matrix of 14-bit values. See http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/camera-sensors.htm

Each raw sensel of a 2x2 array value contributes to the color and brightness of the four RGB pixel values at its corners.

Because the Bayer array and the sharing of the information from each sensel, the image is less sharp (slightly smeared or about 1/2 as sharp) as for an sensor without a Bayer array. That's why an 18 MP Leica Monochrom is as sharp as a 36 MP D8xx and why a 19 MP Foveon sensor is inherently sharper.

The additional raw sensels of a 4x4, 6x6, etc., array around the target RGB pixel are used as a reference to improve noise suppression by removing the effect of hot, dead or otherwise inaccurate pixels. The do not otherwise improve the overall precision of the color or brightness.

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Apr 4, 2017 08:06:54   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
selmslie wrote:
Actually as small as a 2x2 matrix of 14-bit values. See http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/camera-sensors.htm

Each raw sensel of a 2x2 array value contributes to the color and brightness of the four RGB pixel values at its corners.

Because the Bayer array and the sharing of the information from each sensel, the image is less sharp (slightly smeared or about 1/2 as sharp) as for an sensor without a Bayer array. That's why an 18 MP Leica Monochrom is as sharp as a 36 MP D8xx and why a 19 MP Foveon sensor is inherently sharper.

The additional raw sensels of a 4x4, 6x6, etc., array around the target RGB pixel are used as a reference to improve noise suppression by removing the effect of hot, dead or otherwise inaccurate pixels. The do not otherwise improve the overall precision of the color or brightness.
Actually as small as a 2x2 matrix of 14-bit values... (show quote)

I should have stated that slightly different: a 4x4 matrix is the smallest size matrix used. A 2x2 matrix gives such poor results that it is not used in real life raw converters.

You are totally wrong about the reasons for use of a larger matrix, as noise reduction etc is not its purpose at all. The real reason is to provide more accurate color, particularly at edge transitions.

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Apr 4, 2017 08:57:34   #
catchlight.. Loc: Wisconsin USA- Halden Norway
 
The advocates of larger pixels and older cameras being sharper are wrong.

If you want to see your images looking as good as they used to in the past you may have to start viewing them at a smaller size...

Photographers simply need to rethink how they shoot with more megapixels because... they are more sensitive to things like pixel smear.

Sharpness is not the effect of pixel size and...The crop factor adds to the misconception...

Please read these articles and start to understand the facts on pixel size.

Example articles:

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/infobank/capturing_the_image/pixels_and_image_size.do

http://www.ophrysphotography.co.uk/pages/tutorialmegapixelsharpness.htm

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Apr 4, 2017 09:22:11   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Apaflo wrote:
I should have stated that slightly different: a 4x4 matrix is the smallest size matrix used. A 2x2 matrix gives such poor results that it is not used in real life raw converters.

You are totally wrong about the reasons for use of a larger matrix, as noise reduction etc is not its purpose at all. The real reason is to provide more accurate color, particularly at edge transitions.

As susual you are presenting information without comprehension.

A 2x2 matrix will resolve edge transitions more sharply than a 4x4, 6x6 or larger matrix. That's why the ultimate sharpness is achieved without any Bayer array at all, in effect, by a 1x1 matrix.

As for "more accurate" color, there really is no such thing. The color in an RGB image is the result of combining 50% green, with 25% red and 25% blue pixels by weighting their values to make the colors come out right. The first step is getting the numeric representation for each color to come out as close as possible to equal for a very dark, middle gray and very bright neutral (colorless) subject. Beyond that there is a lot of weighting, calculating and adjusting involved. The question as to whether they are accurate is somewhere between subjective and scientifically measured.

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Apr 4, 2017 09:30:16   #
catchlight.. Loc: Wisconsin USA- Halden Norway
 
selmslie wrote:
As susual you are presenting information without comprehension.

A 2x2 matrix will resolve edge transitions more sharply than a 4x4, 6x6 or larger matrix. That's why the ultimate sharpness is achieved without any Bayer array at all, in effect, by a 1x1 matrix.

As for "more accurate" color, there really is no such thing. The color in an RGB image is the result of combining 50% green, with 25% red and 25% blue pixels by weighting their values to make the colors come out right. The first step is getting the numeric representation for each color to come out as close as possible to equal for a very dark, middle gray and very bright neutral (colorless) subject. Beyond that there is a lot of weighting, calculating and adjusting involved. The question as to whether they are accurate is somewhere between subjective and scientifically measured.
As susual you are presenting information without c... (show quote)


...and algorithms are a big part of how all this works.

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Apr 4, 2017 09:30:41   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
catchlight.. wrote:
The advocates of larger pixels and older cameras being sharper are wrong. ... Sharpness is not the effect of pixel size and... ...

I have never seen anyone say that larger pixels are sharper than smaller pixels. They can't be.

Sharpness is the effect of how many pixels define an edge or a point. For a given format, more pixels means smaller pixels - better definition and sharpness.

The only question is just how much sharpness you actually need. If a great deal of your image is out of focus (beyond the DOF range), sharpness becomes less important so long as you have what you want within the DOF and at the place where you want to focus.

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Apr 4, 2017 09:54:16   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
selmslie wrote:
As susual you are presenting information without comprehension.

A 2x2 matrix will resolve edge transitions more sharply than a 4x4, 6x6 or larger matrix.

That is a grand display of abject ignorance. Do some real research.

I am not going to bother with another of your ridiculously obfuscated "discussions",
.

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Apr 4, 2017 10:05:41   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Apaflo wrote:
That is a grand display of abject ignorance. Do some real research.

I am not going to bother with another of your ridiculously obfuscated "discussions",
.

That's rich coming from someone who claims not to engage in ad hominem.

The "loss of resolution from the presence of a Bayer array" was already on the long list of topics you need to learn about. I suggest you start with the link I posted earlier, if you can understand what it says.

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Apr 4, 2017 21:21:00   #
BIG ROB Loc: Princeton, NJ 08540
 
Gene51 wrote:
Five years from now you may find yourself coming to the following conclusions:

Raw is easier and faster to edit, requiring only modest skills.

JPEG is convenient, but results can vary widely, and they are harder to edit.

You can shoot Jpeg and get most of the tonal range you saw, if you are lucky, but you can be much more precise with raw, and you'll be able to take better advantage of your camera's full dynamic range.

Raw records more fine detail.

When you have to make broad adjustments, raw files are more "pliable."

An edited raw file is essentially incomplete - you still need a pixel editor to finish the majority of images.

In high contrast situations, settings that can produce an ok Jpeg will produce a similarly mediocre raw file. But properly exposing for the highlights, often resulting in darker looking images out of the camera, can produce stunningly beautiful images, that will always look better than the out of camera jpegs.

There is no real difference between an amateur and a pro with respect to image quality. Each is capable of both. The better distinction to make is between someone who takes his/her art seriously and a hack. Those who care and seek to make the best images they can will take the time to fully exploit the capabilites of their camera, and their images reflect the effort. This totally applies to both amateurs and pros alike.
Five years from now you may find yourself coming t... (show quote)


Gene, You said: "An edited raw file is essentially incomplete - you still need a pixel editor to finish the majority of images." What is a pixel editor? I've never heard of this before. Thanks, Rob.

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Apr 4, 2017 21:43:41   #
BIG ROB Loc: Princeton, NJ 08540
 
kymarto wrote:
It has nothing to do with being a geek and everything to do with being serious about quality. With raw plugins for Windows I can view raws just like jpgs in Explorer. If I want to convert to jpg it can be done in seconds, or I can choose to batch convert in DxO with resulting jpgs of much higher quality than anything coming from the camera's limited and limiting algorithms.


What is DxO? Thank you! Rob.

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Apr 4, 2017 21:47:27   #
BIG ROB Loc: Princeton, NJ 08540
 
burkphoto wrote:
The point of JPEG is to use the same sort of "PRE-processing" that it took to get great color slides. Careful use of an exposure/white balance target, plus menu settings that give your images precisely the look you want, are the steps that are equivalent to using an incident meter, a color temperature meter, color balancing filters over the lens, and good film choice...

It's a completely opposite mind set from working in raw. The goal is NOT to edit a JPEG. It's to use it as-is, or with minor adjustments. If your situation is such that you cannot trust your exposures, or you know you must do substantial post-processing for creative reasons, then raw capture makes the most sense.

Those of us who burned through countless bricks of slide film years ago had no trouble learning to work with JPEG capture. Many pro photographers who worked exclusively with color negative films prior to 2000 had serious trouble learning to make usable JPEGs.

I was a trainer at a school photography company from 2005 - 2012. I watched our lab customers grapple with JPEG digital capture and freak out! A lot of old-timers retired. One guy went into a manic depressive state and sold his business, rather than accept the fact that we threw all our film processors and optical printers into recycling heaps.

It all came down to a latitude change. Kodak Portra 160 had +2, -1.3 FULL stops, before things got wonky. JPEGs have +1/3, -2/3 stops of latitude before you can see noticeable quality degradation.

LABS fixed customer exposure errors when we printed from film and film scans. So photographers got lazy! But with JPEGs, we couldn't fix the kinds of errors they were used to making (never knew they were making!).

Raw is most similar to color negative film. The difference is that YOU perform part or all of the lab process. Labs generally don't process raw files. So the onus is on photographers: Get it right at the camera, or get it right at the computer. It's not a debate, it's a choice!
The point of JPEG is to use the same sort of "... (show quote)



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Apr 4, 2017 21:57:44   #
Peterff Loc: O'er The Hills and Far Away, in Themyscira.
 
BIG ROB wrote:
Gene, You said: "An edited raw file is essentially incomplete - you still need a pixel editor to finish the majority of images." What is a pixel editor? I've never heard of this before. Thanks, Rob.


Not answering for Gene, but simply put a pixel editor is something like Photoshop or PaintshopPro that can edit 'bitmap' or pixel level format files such as JPEG, or TIFF. Raw files contain image data that has not yet been transformed to bitmap or pixel level image formats, and needs to be processed before it can be edited in a camera or in a computer. Essentially a 'bitmap' of some kind needs to be created to be viewed by a human being on a screen or as a print. It doesn't have to be a JPEG, but it frequently is.

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Apr 4, 2017 22:01:06   #
BIG ROB Loc: Princeton, NJ 08540
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
On the subject of keywords:
you can addd keywords when importing as described above. However, all the keywords you enter are applied to all the images you are importing. If you have a lot of images covering different subjects it's going to be hard to choose keywords that are appropriate to all the images. I find it easier to select a group of images with a common subject and apply the appropriate keywords to all of them on import. Then I select a group of photos with a different (but common to them) subject and import them with another set of keywords.

When you look at the images in grid view (press "g") the panel on the right will include a section "Keywording". Use the arrow to the right of that word to expand that panel. There will be a box in which you can type keywords. Keywords can include spaces. Keywords are separated by commas.

1600-1700 images? Are they all one subject or are you just letting images build up on your card until you have time to put them into LR? I think that would complicate the process. It would be easier to either send the images to your computer more frequently or change cards after you have finished with a particular subject. Another possibility is to try something like Downloader Pro. That program will download the files from the card to your computer (or external drive). You get a dialog with thumbnails of the images on the card and you get a panel on the left with dates from the EXIF data on all the image files. You can click on one date and the program will automatically select all the files taken on that date. Or you can select several dates. Or you can select individual photos from the thumbnails. In that way you can select all the photos with a given subject, then download them where you want them. I use folders named with the subject. For details see http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/user-page?upnum=1595

I'm not suggesting that Downloader Pro is the only way to go or even the best way to go. It's the way that works for me and I'm just offering it as an example to show how I organize my folder hierarchy. I believe that an organizational method outside of Lightroom is as important as an organizational method within Lightroom. Also, Downloader Pro has been around for a while so there are probably newer programs out there that would do the same thing.

I'm not very good at remembering dates so I don't generally organize or search for images by date. I search by subject. In fact, sometimes the only way I can find out when I shot a given subject is to look at the images in LR (I include the date in the file name).

As far as building up an immense list of files in your computer or on your external drive is concerned, the delete key is an essential tool. I'm pretty anal about keeping too many images. I have to force myself to delete stuff. I compromise sometimes. I delete a file of little value from the Lightroom catalog, but not the disk. That way it gets backed up, but it doesn't clutter up my LR catalog. In Lightroom you have two delete choices. (best done in grid view) Select a group of images youdon't really want. Hit the delete key. A dialog will come up asking if you want to delete the file from the disk or just remove it from the LR catalog but leave it on the drive.

I'm not sure if I answered your question or not. Feel free to ask me to clarify anything that I didn't.

PS: I'm a Windows guy. I have noted a few differences between Windows LR and Mac LR. I don't use Mac so I can't really troubleshoot in that case.
On the subject of keywords: br you can addd keywor... (show quote)


Thanks for the information! Rob.

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