E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Back in the day, when I was doing 3 to 5 day workshops, we used to always take some time out from all the technical stuff to talk about business, promotion and money! Why not? I am sure that somewhere out there, someone wrote a book entitled "Wedding Photography for Fun and Profit".- or something like that Well- I love my job-my chosen profession but I never considered it "fun"! That's because it's hard work, long hours and it has to be taken seriously. I mean- we aren't doctors, lawyers or police officers, we don't deal in life or death situations but there is quite a bit of responsibility involved. Y'all have heard the stories; the house is on fire so the mom and pop grab the kids, the cat and the wedding pictures and run for the lives! The images we promise to produce will hold important sentimental value- we can't mess up or there will be hell to pay. We all want to do out very best work for each and every one of out clients and we want to maintain our professional reputations. As I said- lots of responsibility!

So...at the end of the day- we gotta turn a decent profit in return for our efforts, we have to compete in the market place and especially nowadays, we need to stand out way above the amateurs and hacks.

Some of my photographer friends think I am crazy! They say "why bother with all this lighting gear, all the additional work, staff, and investment"? Many feel that they can get away with allot less in that most folks don't expect all that much or don't appreciate the differences. I disagree! My philosophy is very simple; you can't sell what you don't show! If you don't have outstanding samples of you work, luxurious leather albums, large portraits and unique services, there is no chance you can upgrade your clientele, raise you prices and and book bigger and more profitable contacts.

I feature "FINE PORTRAITURE" as part of my wedding services- that's where the lighting comes in. Of course, theses day, the big trend is a photo-journalistic style of wedding coverage. OK- I'm good with that- I can shoot as fast and furious as the next guy, but in some cases, so can Uncle Oscar with his totally automatic DSLR! I am ahead of the game because I am better at getting expressions and my images have more punch and dimension- "LIGHTING LIKE IN THE MOVIES"- most folks see and understand that! My big edge is in the portraits and formals. Consider all the money brides, grooms and there families spend on wedding attire, flowers, hair styling and makeup! They wanna look great on the wedding day! Flattering, artistic and impressive portraits go hand in hand with this attitude but this require that you educate you potential clients and the be able to deliver on you promise to create aesthetically pleasing results!

I have always found that most folks will pay more for a superior product and service. The budgets are there, it's just that we have to capture our share. Any successful product/service business person will agree on the importance of ADD ON SALES. My big add on sales are in large wall portraits. This again, is where the lighting factors in. I find that when I can produce images, even within the limited windows of opportunity (time constraints) of a wedding that have the ingredients of masterfully-crafted traditional portraits, my sales potential w exponentially increased.

I can produce some impressively and dynamically posed and lighted formals in just a few minutes- oftentimes just one additional off camera light does the trick. I display very large framed portraits with premium finishes in my office and showroom area. When final album selection are made, I project some of the formal images into a blank 30X40 frame. I sell lots of 30X40s, 24x30s and similar sizes. Even if the clients opt for something smaller like 20x24 or 16x20, my add-on sales are always good. I am often pleasantly surprised how many clients go for the 40" formats and my custom framing sales have increased as well. When I show the big sizes, it's easy enough to sell down but it is more difficult to sell up!

Not everyone buys the largest prints but at the end of the year, the wall portrait sales add significantly to the bottom line. This more than justifies the additional equipment expenditures and labor costs. Large prints hanging in my client's homes also yield lots of referral business. Some of my most popular packages, include at least one large framed portrait.

You gotta show it to sell it!

Please excuse the i-phone images- my computers and scanners are still down. Just want to give y'all some idea of scale of the display prints in my studio.

Ed

BermBuster Loc: Hi Desert S.Cal

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and insights.
I personally ‘hate’ selling, and ‘educating’ customers... which I guess is unavoidable, so instead - I am always looking for ways to make buying ‘easy’.
I try not to give “too many” choices... & I’ll even take payments. I would rather not argue with you about why my pictures are better than Uncle Bob’s, but have you buy mine - because “I have a better camera”.
So I really like your idea of large framed prints & “showing to sell it”.
I might start out with some large canvas prints, and see how it goes.
Thanks again.

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

Hey BermBuster, I hear you about not wanting to sell. We just want to take pretty pictures, right? Unfortunately, the difference between a business and a hobby. You can work as a "hobby business" which is what I do, but without actually selling (wall portraits, albums, your services etc.) you will unfortunately find yourself just doing photos for friends and relatives. There's nothing wrong with that, but if you want to stay even relatively busy and "make some money" unfortunately, sales is a part of the equation. Don't even get me started with the "business" part of it, taxes, insurance, etc...

I've been doing my "hobby/business" for 30 years, and am still working on improving my sales. Ed's point of showing it before you can sell it, is probably the #1 thing that has made a difference for me. You won't find 8x10 or 5x7 pictures anywhere in my house. I also don't have anything on my walls, that wasn't taken by me. I try to let people know that family portraits are art worthy of display in nice frames, and even lit like a museum if at all possible. I also bring albums with me to appointments for weddings.

I do have a small 8x10 canvas print that I can pull out and show someone how ridiculous it looks when held up against a 20x30 print on the wall. When we are looking through photos to order, I can point to a 20x30, or 30x40 and tell them how much that will cost. If they balk at that, and say "I just wanted an 8x10, how much would that be?" First, I don't belittle anyone for saying that, I do refer to 8x10s as "gift prints" or "gift sizes", but I never say they can't order whatever size. I just get out the 8x10 canvas, and hold it up and tell them how much that would cost. When they are used to seeing the large prints everywhere, then see just how tiny an 8x10, and how you just can't really see the details and the faces, it sells itself. If they are still shell shocked at the price, they normally will point to my "small" picture on the wall. I do have one 16x20, and that is my photo that I tell people is "the smallest size I would ever suggest to hang on a wall", but it looks really small compared to the big prints. In my personal opinion, photos of their family, or the most important time in their lives, deserve a place of honor on the wall, not on some corner. Now, groupings are a different thing. Three 11x14's hung together look really nice above a sofa. (3 20x30's look better)

I have photos of client's homes with the larger family photos hung above a fire place, or above a sofa, on my phone, and will show the people I'm meeting with how these look a lot better than some random print they found at a store or online, and paid to have framed, sometimes costing more than what they would have paid for a really nice print of their family.

None of it is high pressure, it's educating and conversational. Where I struggle is with the close, and KNOWING WHEN TO SHUT UP. If someone picks a photo, and says they really like a certain size, you (I'm talking about me here) need to know to shut up and take the order. Keep talking, and they may downsize their order. I've had it happen.

Anyway, as Ed is the real expert, and has done this as his sole income, I'm sure he has more suggestions. I'm just sharing some insights that I've learned over the years. I just wish I knew early on, what I know now. Hopefully, some of this will help someone else as well. It's not tricks, it's actually helping them to see the potential.

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Hey, BermBuster!

I wholeheartedly sympathize with your feelings about "selling", I don't know if there is anyone else who "hates" selling, per se, more than me! I may have mentioned this before, that if I had to sell anything other than my own photographic services, I would surely starve to death. this is because I don't have or believe in so-called sales pitches, tricks or strategies.

I do, however, believe in client education. When I use the term education, I don't mean that I am going to lecture anyone or give then a course in photographic technology. I like to treat folks as I like to be treated by others. When I go out to see other professionals- my accountant, my docs, my auto mechanic or my favorite plumber, I am counting on their sincere, honest professional advice and experience. If I DETECT that someone is trying to "sell me a bill o goods" or feeding me a load of hype- I am out of there in a flash! I gotta brag- I am a good DETECTive!

I genuinely believe that the most valuable commodity I have to offer my clients is my PROFESSIONAL knowledge, experience, competence and my heartfelt desire to offer my very best work. I need them to understand that I am on their side and everything I am going to do and advise them about is on their behalf and to their benefit.

Having written or saying all of the foregoing, I still have a problem, here on the forum and at workshops and classes. Photographers still ask me for sales tips- I don't blame them, after all folks like definitive answers, not a whole bunch of high-minded philosophical thoughts and psychobabble. They agree that I know how to shoot the stuff that I show and talk about but they wanna know "how do I sell it"? All I can tell y'all is what I do and what works for me.

Like many of my cohorts in the business, I would love to just do the shooting and leave all of the sales and business issues to others. I am extremely fortunate in that that my wife is also my business partner and she handles a good portion of our customer relations and office management responsibilities. Helen is a stickler for detail work and is extremely well organized. With weddings, however, I still look after the booking and planning/scheduling tasks in the interest of continuity.

Of course, good sales are vital for any business and is always up for improvement as Bob has pointed out. So...comes convention time, I always sat in on the sales seminars, took a few courses and bought the books. I always came away a few tips and ides but most of what a practice, I learned as a kid form my grandmother and from my first boss and mentor when I was a rookie. Most of it it common sense and people skills. Some of this stuff is just too simple and basic but I am oftentimes surprised at how many wedding photographers, nowadays, don't get some of this.

My rule #1 is that folks will not buy and give their hard earned money to someone who they don't like! My approach is somewhat laid-back and I never resort to any kind of pressure or hard selling- it just ain't in my DNA. When potential wedding clients visit , I want to hear about their wedding plans, first and foremost. I need to know what they really need and want and the put together a plan to accommodate their tastes and desires. The first step in a successful sale is creating desire for your product and service! When folks pick up on my enthusiasm and sense that I am there to listen to them and help them- the rest of the job is easy. A good salesperson does not SELL anything, he or she simply HELPS THE CLIENT TO BUY!

Rule #2-I NEVER resort to NEGATIVISM! I never discuss what "other photographers" do or don't do. I only talk about what I do and how theses things will benefit them as my clients. If the customer mentions my competitors, I always try to say good things about them and mention that I have great relations with all of my fellow professionals. Sometimes a "tough customer" will look for a bargaining chip and attempt to "divide and conquer". They might say "Joe, the photographer, down the road, charges less, etc. -whatever...and my response is that Joe's is a great guy and we have coffee all the time and attend association meeting together! That usually ends that kinda thing. If I know that "Joe" is really a bad cat, I simply say that "I am sorry but I am not familiar with his work"! My grandma taught me that if I have nothing good to say, don't say anything at all! With all the insanity on the political scene nowadays, I think folks are tired of NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNING and people bad-mouthing one and other. Nothing wrong with healthy competition and debate but at the end of the day, cooperation and compromise yields more progress.

Rule #3 TRUTH and HONESTY! This is not a rule- it's a commandment as far as I am concerned. OVERSELLING is bad! I only promise what I know I can deliver. I lay out my price structure and familiarize my clients with they can ACTUALLY expect to pay. Folks are weary of bait and switch deals. After the clients tell me about their wedding plans, I advise them on what they really need to accommodate a comprehensive coverage and what their BOTTOM LINE will be- no unpleasant surprises after the wedding. They know what their catering will cost, there ceremony fees, the entertainment budget and everything else and so they should have there photography budget firmly established as well. When folks are comfortable with the financial arrangements, the entire job flows smoothly.

I also tell them what kind of cooperation I need in order to produce my best work for them. There are tons of misconceptions out there. If they admire my formal portraits, I tell them that theses kinds of images don't materialize all by themselves and some time must be put aside for a well organized and enjoyable session. I emphasize that I want them to enjoy every aspect of their wedding day, including the photography and that careful planning will assure that they will enjoy the celebrations without interruptions once the formal session is completed. I mention that I don't pose many shots during the festivities and prefer to make a truly candid and unobtrusive coverage as their event unfolds.

I always tell my trainees and students that AMBIGUITY is their worst enemy! Take time to explain things carefully and get everything down in writing. Everyone has to be on the same page. I am very emphatic about this. I teach that overselling and sloppy planning will always come back and "bite you in the butt" but ethical business dealings and kindness will come back in terms of referral business.

OK- so here's the deal on BIG PORTRAITS and big albums. Sure- I love to encourage the wall portraits but not every client wants them. Some of my clients live in rather opulent homes and some of them live in more modest quarters. I have always been a proponent of "photo-decor" and yet some clients are not into large prints but might prefer clusters of smaller prints on a more casual "family wall". A recent client of mine told me that she finds large portraits are "ostentatious" and would never display them in her home. She did, however, order a 2 volume leather bound wedding album with 100 8x10 prints and over $1,200 worth of 4x5s, 5x7s and 8x10s gift prints for her family and bridal party! So...I have nothing against small prints!

My large display prints are my "silent salesmen". Thing is, I am a shy guy at heart and not into bragging. I used to keep my diplomas, award certificates and all that stuff in the file cabinet but my wife had them all framed and displays them on the walls along with the big prints. I don't bring any of theses accomplishments into conversations with clients but Helen says that people should realize that, like other professionals, we have dedicated our lives to learning our trade, improving our capabilities and serving our community. Well- I don't think it's cool to brag about myself, but it's OK of my wife boast about her talented husband! Is that a cop-out of what?!

Our display consists of large prints, arrangements of smaller prints, various sizes and formats and both modern and traditional framing treatments. Our showroom area is more like a living room so this gives the wall portraits "scale". A 30x40 print does not look disproportionately large when it is placed over a sofa or a piano. Folks need to relate theses sizes to their own homes.

BermBuster makes an important comment about making it easy for his customers to buy! This to is a simple and solid but often overlooked principle. I try to remove as many obstacles as I can. It's reality- some of my clients can just write me a check and that's that! With others I have to work out some kind of a reasonable payment schedule. I have all the major credit card services and I try to keep my contracts as plain and easily understandable as possible.

Yes! Photography is my full time job but insanely enough, it is also my favorite hobby. When I am not working in the studio or out on a wedding, I am out shooting landscapes or goofing around with my i-phone camera and fooling with all of the apps- my family thinks I'm nuts! A also like playing the accordion, I am a bit of an audiophile- into electronics and like building stuff. My wife thinks I break stuff, just so I can fix it!

So...gentlemen and ladies, if there are any of y'all lurking out there...I am really enjoying this conversation. I't's nice to exchange ideas and explore what others are up to.

Regards, Ed

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

I can't overstate how much I agree with Ed, especially on #2.
My "day job" is a purchasing manager. I deal with sales people all day.
If I have someone call on me who wants to make themselves look better, by putting someone else down... I show them the door. In no uncertain terms, I inform them that my number one rule is that "you need to make yourself look good, by looking good, not by putting down the competition. I don't give them a second chance.

It sounds harsh, but I deal with sales people every day, year in and year out. The "put the other guy down" salespeople, never last.... so they aren't worth my time.

One other thing I thought of is, if someone asks me "how much is that size?" I know my prices without looking them up. My personal opinion is, if there is a delay, I kind of feel like the person is "measuring me" to see how much they can get out of me. A quick answer is a sign that you charge everyone the same thing.

If you don't have the prices memorized, have a sheet handy that you can get the answer RIGHT then.

Of course, this is based on my years, and my personal opinions based on what I do for a living.

GREAT topic Ed. I think we often forget that there's a LOT more to wedding (and portrait) photography than taking pretty pictures.

BermBuster Loc: Hi Desert S.Cal

Sorry it takes me so long to respond... I moved in the last year, very rural, no internet - only 1 cell signal bar, if you stand on one leg and hold your tongue just right :) I drive a few miles for good signal, tether my laptop to my cell phone...download emails or topics like this- head home, read up and next trip respond.
But I have to say....Thank you VERY much guys! The time and thought you put into this.. from experience...is what I'd rather hear, than read some book teaching how to increase sales by manipulating the client!
I would have never known how to ask the right questions to get these types of answers. This is definitely not the type of "sales' tactics I have been exposed too. But I can relate to these! And I'm sure there are alot of others who would benefit from this too.
I worked for years.. in a business surrounded by sales people. I would hear them scheme on manipulating conversations, spin deception, practice a 'wince' in their voice... Thats not in my DNA either, & I hate to be associated in anyway with this type.
I try not to give too many options when I'm selling, because I seen to overwhelm them, they need to think-and I lose ... I also have a problem talking too much, and when someone is looking for the best deal...I seem to talk them down to less than they were expecting ... so as bkyster pointed out, I need to learn to shut up earlier :)
I always try to 'over deliver', & keep expectations realistic... not low, but exactly as promised. Because I too have been burned by high expectations from the client 'assuming' that all photographers do "this or that". I need to come up with a check sheet to put this all in writing at the get go, as Ed suggested.
Thanks again! Sorry I strayed from the 'Multiple Lighting Techniques ..." topic. Which I am enjoying also!
Kent

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Hey Kent!

Thanks for the response. I think we are setting a good example, here on the forum. You are out in the sticks with no Internet service and I am sitting up here in Canada, in the middle of a record snow fall with a half-dead computer, copying pictures and makin' diagrams on my i-phone and yet we are still managing to post and having a good conversation! Maybe this will inspire some of the "silent majority", my nice word for lurkers, to join in the conversation and post some feedback and input.

I certainly understand what you mean about unscrupulous sales tactics, they are certainly out there in the marketplace. Treating folks with respect, honesty and kindness makes me and my wife feel good about ourselves, our staff and our business. It't the kind of "vibe" that rubs off on the people we deal with, our clients, our suppliers and all the people we deal with and work with out in the wedding field- the other vendors, the clergy, and everyone we need to cooperate with. When your reputation precedes you, the sales work becomes easy and fun rather than a chore that we need to force ourselves to do.

I have trained a good number of people in wedding photography, some had great artistic talent and potential but sadly, were not "people-persons"! The ones who were eventually successful, oftentimes were the guys and gals that just do good clean work but had exceptional people skills and are sincerely interested in serving their customers in a professional and ethical manner.

Besides being a "feel good" and proper way to go, this attitude is just good business. Under-selling and over-delivering is a good investment in many ways. Some photographers worry that throwing in a little more time or product gets expensive but I look at it differently. My clients know that they are going to get their money's worth and more so my rate of referral business is strong. Except for one annual bridal show and the odd wedding magazine ad, my advertising and promotional budget in the wedding part of my business is virtually nil. I am too busy in that area and I am too old so I am trying to get my talented daughter to take over the wedding department.

Regards, Ed

BermBuster Loc: Hi Desert S.Cal

I like your attitude and tactics. And I'm really glad to hear your business has been successful, by actually having a good reputation!
I'm a sucker for a sob story, and will give you the shirt off my back. But if I think you are deceitful and dishonest, I won't give you the time of day.
I just figured I'll never be rich, because I refuse to take advantage of people. And those that do...Will get theirs in the end. :)

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

I just booked a wedding for the daughter of a past bride and groom. My record is 3 generations of weddings. Anyway, that is another reason that I prefer to do the best I can for clients, and that includes showing them that a 20x30 portrait isn't as "disgustingly large" as they would picture in their mind. Showing people large prints, and beautiful albums isn't a "tactic" as much as it is educating people. I can't tell you how often I've had people tell me that they didn't even know that was an option. I think Ed's lesson here is more about educating people, and not "selling." I do admit, once I started displaying the large prints, my sales went up dramatically. I've yet to have a client that didn't thank me profusely after everything was said and done. That's one of the reasons I enjoy this so much. (and put up with the business side of things)

Tim Stapp Loc: Mid Mitten

One of the silent "lurkers" here. My association with bkyser started almost two years ago. I basically stalked him here. One of his posts related as to how he was willing to take on beginners and mentor them. I began to follow his posts in other sections and quickly began to respect his integrity and business practices. We have since become close friends, despite the 3-1/2 drive to visit.

Tim Stapp Loc: Mid Mitten

Ed, I may have to print out your "tutorials" for study and practice. Maybe over the course of time, you should edit and put them out there in print -:)

BermBuster Loc: Hi Desert S.Cal

bkyser, until now, I never really considered "..Showing people large prints, and beautiful albums ..", I had the price lists and the sizes, and could kick myself for not coming up with this on my own! Being able to see.. touch.. would really bring it to life. And custom framing might be a great addition too! I think it would move it from an 'upsale' to - "look at this"-"hold this".. if you want it - you can buy it. Thanks for the suggestions!
Tim, I have to agree with you. The first time he and Ed replied to one of my questions, I went thru and looked up comments they had posted for others ... The integrity of both these guys really does stand out.So I added them to my buddy list, so now I'm stalking them too . :)
Thanks again guys!
Signed: Stalker Two

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

Your comment about adding custom framing reminded me of my feeble attempts. At Tim's birthday party, we discussed my "aptitude" with finish carpentry. He actually is quite capable of doing some amazing work with one of his friends. I can drywall and frame walls with the best of them. When it comes to framing photos, I can't put together a simple corner. I tried jigs, tricks, taking my time, new saw blades... I just don't have the aptitude. If you are able to make custom frames yourself, my hat is off to you. I can make mats, but they take me forever. I found it easier to either go with canvas prints, or work with a good framer that will give me a small commission.