trackphotog Loc: New Mexico

I'm the race track photographer for a horse racing track, shooting the photos for the win photos. The photos remain the property of the race track and often, for a fee, we provide photos for advertising purposes (mainly for promoting breeding farms in magazine advertising). I had a request however recently that I've never encountered nor dealt with before and am unsure how to proceed and hope someone can give me some help/advice in this area.

I had a request to provide/sell rights to a photo of a specific horse for their use in feed packaging. I'm aware that this could be a big deal, (or not :) ). My question I guess is, although the photo itself is the property of the race track, does the owner have some rights to the use of the photo for commercial use? And, does anyone have any experience dealing with commercial use such as a major produce packaging with putting a price on something like this. Where would one even start? It's still in the feeling out stage at this point, just want to have some idea of what I may be getting into before I get in too deep.

HELP!

I'd appreciate any advice I could can get.

Roberta Harris

cfhelz45 Loc: The Villages, Florida

I think you would need the horse owner's permission.

jim quist Loc: Missouri

You need to check with the track to see if you can use them. If the images remain the property of the race track then they have the rights to them, you are considered an employee and everything you shoot is theirs.

A photographer that was on salary at a university as the university photographer was in the situation you are in. All of his work belonged to the college. He was selling sports photos without them knowing about it and they fired him for it.

trackphotog Loc: New Mexico

I too, assumed that they would need to be involved in the and have their blessing. I've also thought that they should be the ones to pursue purchasing the rights of the photo and dealing directly with the commercial dealer for the packaging.

trackphotog Loc: New Mexico

You are right and I'm not pursuing this for my benefit, but as a go between for the track as I am a full time employee. (i've encountered the creative downside to artistic creations belonging to the employer while working in jewelry design. :).) The photos are the property of the race track so as the graphic artist also, I have freedom to use the photos however I want; I just was wondering if under such circumstances where it is a large commercial exposure, how much control the owners may retain on an image of their property.

jeep_daddy Loc: Prescott AZ

Did you sign any type of agreement with them? If so, you should take it to a lawyer and see what they say. If not, and you are an employee, you should simply ask your boss and then perhaps get his signature for release of the image you need for this project.

rgrenaderphoto Loc: Hollywood, CA

Are you an employee of said Race Track? Confirm, in writing if necessary, that you have free use of images taken while an employee to use the Race Track's intellectual property. If you obtained a signed release from your employee to provide/sell the image to a commercial entity, then you'd be in the clear. Remember, any commitments made verbally are worthless, for your protection, it has to be in writing.

I had almost the exact scenario happen to me in the 80's, took photographs of company products in use for in advertising, vendor wanted to use images in catalog. VP Sales gave verbal permission that was squashed by CEO.

Just be careful.

trackphotog Loc: New Mexico

Thanks for the advice....not really worried about my interests since I'm representing the company and won't personally benefit from any transaction....just curious to hear from others how to handle the whole commercial deal.

JohnSwanda Loc: San Francisco

I would think a business like a race track must already have an attorney. They should check with the attorney about the rights of the owners of the horse. They may need a release from them, and they probably will want a cut of the payment. I would be surprised if the feed company didn't raise that issue themselves.

trackphotog Loc: New Mexico

The track has a corporate attorney, but our comptroller didn't think they would be very well versed in this department. :) I've raised the question to the feed company, and requested they get written permission for use of the photo, so we'll see what happens.
Thanks.

leftj Loc: Texas

You answered your own question in the second sentence. If the photos you take are contractually the property of the race track then you cannot sell something that isn't yours.

billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont

All rights means you cannot ever use the photo again for anything, if this is not an issue for you, sell it for BIG BUCKS. Interesting, if the photo you sell show that another horse did not win, and assuming you sold this shot, if I were the owner of the horse that lost I could come back on you and say my horse won and you could not disprove it.

pithydoug Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY

Maybe horse owner and definitely the track, especially the track as you work for them. What does your contract say?

Sounds like a slippery slope!

lngroller

several things will go into determining the usage fee. The size of the image on the package and the "run" of packaging. how many units will have this image on it? for how long? all of this information is needed to determine a fair market price for the use of an image. as example, a small restaurant wants an image of a bowl of Mac and Cheese for their menu. they will have say 100 menus printed and they remake their menus every 2 years. the value of that image is far less than when Kraft calls and wants a new image of mac and cheese to put on their boxes where millions of boxes will be produced and they will want usage for say 10 years. You may charge $100 usage rights for the first image (after photography fees) but the same image for Kraft would be 10's of thousands of dollars. same effort into shooting it.... but the value the buyer will realize from the image is many many times the value. also, the main image on the box would be worth much more than a small inset on the back showing preparation. Also to consider as others have said. The horse owner will have a say, if there is a Jockey permission will be needed there, if Sulky races, the manufacturer of the Sulky. basically anything identifiable in the image has a say. Once shooting a well known performer as a testimonial for instruments the shoot was almost canceled because the stage floor at the venue would show and they wanted their cut. so anything remotely identifiable in the image has to be considered.

jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY

"The photos remain the property of the race track..."

That sounds pretty conclusive, but discussing it would be a good way to start the process. See how much money is involved before giving yourself headaches.