Neutral Density Filter
Mar 8, 2017 14:42:32 #
I understand that a neutral density filter is used to shoot at slower shutter speeds. But what is the difference using an ND and perhaps using a polarizing filter (if appropriate) and a smaller f stop? Thanks.
Mar 8, 2017 14:49:23 #
Small apertures often don't give the sharpest results + the photographer may want a shallow depth of field.
And sometimes people want a very, very slow shutter speed that can't be achieved in daytime without use of the ND filter. Check out this one which used two filters totaling a 16-stop exposure change:
http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-440747-1.html
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And sometimes people want a very, very slow shutter speed that can't be achieved in daytime without use of the ND filter. Check out this one which used two filters totaling a 16-stop exposure change:
http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-440747-1.html
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Mar 8, 2017 14:52:32 #
DGStinner
Loc: New Jersey
An ND filter allows for a wider aperture, thus giving you a shallower DOF.
For example, let's say your base exposure is f/2.8, ISO 100, 1/250s and assume the polarizer gives you 3 stops.
With a 10 stop ND, you can slow the shutter speed down to 4 seconds leaving the lens at f/2.8.
The polarizer, before closing down the aperture, would only get you to 1/32s. To get the same 4 second exposure, you'd have to stop down to f/32.
For example, let's say your base exposure is f/2.8, ISO 100, 1/250s and assume the polarizer gives you 3 stops.
With a 10 stop ND, you can slow the shutter speed down to 4 seconds leaving the lens at f/2.8.
The polarizer, before closing down the aperture, would only get you to 1/32s. To get the same 4 second exposure, you'd have to stop down to f/32.
Mar 8, 2017 14:59:53 #
will47 wrote:
I understand that a neutral density filter is used to shoot at slower shutter speeds. But what is the difference using an ND and perhaps using a polarizing filter (if appropriate) and a smaller f stop? Thanks.
Polarizer will help minimize reflections on water, and shiny specular reflections on other surfaces. It will also darken a blue sky with the maximum effect when the camera is at right angles to the sun. There is an increase in color saturation (without the reflections), and you will lose from 1-1/2 to 2 stops of light.
A plain ND filter will just cut down the amount of light hitting the sensor - for a combination of longer shutter speed, wider aperture, or higher ISO, though most go for the longer shutter speed and/or wider aperture.
When you combine the two, you get the effects of the polarizer along with the reduction in light provided by the ND.
Mar 8, 2017 15:24:30 #
These will help...
Introduction to ND Filters: The Basics
How to Use ND Filters: Beyond the Basics
How To Use A Polarizing Filter
Introduction to ND Filters: The Basics
How to Use ND Filters: Beyond the Basics
How To Use A Polarizing Filter
Mar 8, 2017 15:25:27 #
photoman022
Loc: Manchester CT USA
A polarizing filter will block out some light, causing the need for a slower shutter speed (or wider aperture) but it won't be enough to "really" slow down the shutter speed (or increase the aperture). You may lose one or two stops of light with a polarizing filter; you can lose much more light with an ND filter.
Rereading you post, I'm not sure if you want to use the ND and CPL together or if you are thinking of using the polarizer in place of the ND. If you want to use the CPL instead of the ND, read the first paragraph. If you want to use them together, I honestly do not know what effect that will have because I've never done it. In my mind each of the filters has their own purpose and use.
Rereading you post, I'm not sure if you want to use the ND and CPL together or if you are thinking of using the polarizer in place of the ND. If you want to use the CPL instead of the ND, read the first paragraph. If you want to use them together, I honestly do not know what effect that will have because I've never done it. In my mind each of the filters has their own purpose and use.
Mar 8, 2017 16:21:44 #
photoman022 wrote:
A polarizing filter will block out some light, cau... (show quote)
I am getting ready to break the pig and take the plunge and buy a 100mm filter holder which allows for a CPL to sit behind the slots for the ND filters.. the factors have to be added together to get the new shutter speed. If the CPL is a 1 stop and the ND is say a 3 stop, you would have to adjust for 4 stops.
Mar 9, 2017 06:29:11 #
will47 wrote:
I understand that a neutral density filter is used to shoot at slower shutter speeds. But what is the difference using an ND and perhaps using a polarizing filter (if appropriate) and a smaller f stop? Thanks.
A CPL reduces light only slightly. With ND, you talking about several stops and several seconds of exposure.
Mar 9, 2017 06:39:12 #
Gene51 wrote:
Polarizer will help minimize reflections on water,... (show quote)
Excellent explanation! Thank you Gene51
Mar 9, 2017 06:49:00 #
will47 wrote:
I understand that a neutral density filter is used to shoot at slower shutter speeds. But what is the difference using an ND and perhaps using a polarizing filter (if appropriate) and a smaller f stop? Thanks.
Actually a polarizing works at a right angle or near right angle to you light source , usually used to reduce glare, but will darken to some degree, they are great for intensifying the sky color and the clouds.
Mar 9, 2017 06:58:32 #
billnikon
Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
will47 wrote:
I understand that a neutral density filter is used to shoot at slower shutter speeds. But what is the difference using an ND and perhaps using a polarizing filter (if appropriate) and a smaller f stop? Thanks.
ND filters are designed to slow the shutter and not effect the over all color. Polarizing filters are designed to cut flare and saturate blue skies. ND filters come in different light stopping power from one stop to ten stops. Most Polarizing filters have a lens stopping power of around 2 stops. These two filters are often combined using the best of both filters in one shot.
Mar 9, 2017 09:52:39 #
Let me start by saying that a true ND filter will not add any color shift to the photograph. You are right, photographers tend to use ND filters so that they can use slower shutter speeds or to control the light hitting the sensor or film if a high ISO speed is in use. ND filters are often used to record water movement when shooting a water fall and that seems to be a very popular use of those filters.
Of course that you can use a small lens opening with a ND filter but the shutter speed will get too slow depending on the filter factor to the point that hand holding the camera is not possible for sharp photographs. It is customary and preferable to use the filter with camera on a steady support.
Polarizers are also ND filters with a factor of 2 stops when at full polarization. I have used a polarizer many times as a 2 stop ND filter to slow the movement of subjects. The polarizer also supress shining non metallic surfaces, saturates colors and tend to darken the sky when at a 90 degrees angle to the subject.
Of course that you can use a small lens opening with a ND filter but the shutter speed will get too slow depending on the filter factor to the point that hand holding the camera is not possible for sharp photographs. It is customary and preferable to use the filter with camera on a steady support.
Polarizers are also ND filters with a factor of 2 stops when at full polarization. I have used a polarizer many times as a 2 stop ND filter to slow the movement of subjects. The polarizer also supress shining non metallic surfaces, saturates colors and tend to darken the sky when at a 90 degrees angle to the subject.
Mar 9, 2017 10:38:23 #
RichieC
Loc: Adirondacks
ND filters cuts down the amount of light entering the lens, ( except for those telephotos that have filters at base) . That is all they do. If you ever say - "man its bright, i wish i could use a slower shutter speed, larger aperture..." then you need to cut down on light and one way is getting a ND filter.
Don't cheap out. Good ones are better.
Get a size that fits your largest lens and buy adapters for your narrower lens so you only buy them once. Same for all filters.
Do get a very dark one if you are looking for special effects... blurred waterfalls- etc. (You will also require a tripod and cable release...) The ones you can't see through will return the results you are looking for. Any lighter and the effect is much more subtle. However, a range of them is very useful at times. And they can be stacked.
Polarizers cut down on light but are fickle as to light direction and a wide angle lens will band.. as they are wider than the polarized band/effect returns. ( Polarizers work at 90° to sun direction, but a wide angle lens with 90° field of view means polarizer at the sides has no effect... you get a pronounced dark band in center of image), and that is not what they are designed to do. Variable ND filters are two polarizers stacked.. that adjust as you twist the one in relation to the other. I haven't heard great things about them, but my rig is very high res- so I early-on opted out on them after my research said a dedicated ND filter are better- so I have not read any more about them. I'll bet someone out there loves em...
Don't cheap out. Good ones are better.
Get a size that fits your largest lens and buy adapters for your narrower lens so you only buy them once. Same for all filters.
Do get a very dark one if you are looking for special effects... blurred waterfalls- etc. (You will also require a tripod and cable release...) The ones you can't see through will return the results you are looking for. Any lighter and the effect is much more subtle. However, a range of them is very useful at times. And they can be stacked.
Polarizers cut down on light but are fickle as to light direction and a wide angle lens will band.. as they are wider than the polarized band/effect returns. ( Polarizers work at 90° to sun direction, but a wide angle lens with 90° field of view means polarizer at the sides has no effect... you get a pronounced dark band in center of image), and that is not what they are designed to do. Variable ND filters are two polarizers stacked.. that adjust as you twist the one in relation to the other. I haven't heard great things about them, but my rig is very high res- so I early-on opted out on them after my research said a dedicated ND filter are better- so I have not read any more about them. I'll bet someone out there loves em...
Mar 9, 2017 11:36:54 #
amfoto1
Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
A standard strength polarizing filter typically will reduce light by one to two stops, depending upon the setting. (There are "HT" or "high transmissive" polarizers that reduce a slightly less... roughly 3/4 stop to 1.5 stops).
Neutral density filters come in a wide variety of strengths, from as little as 1/3 stop to as much as much as ten or fourteen stops. Still photographers usually just need two or three fairly strong strengths to "shift" their exposure range significantly, and then can use other exposure factors to fine tune their exposure, to get the effect they want. Videographers may need a more different strength ND, since they have less flexibility with other exposure factors.
ND filters are often used to allow a slower shutter speed than would be possible without the filter, for deliberate motion blur effects. They also are sometimes used to be able to use a larger aperture than would normally be possible, for shallower depth of field effects.
A polarizing filter can be used as a relatively weak form of ND filters. But polarizers have additional effects... In simple terms, "polarization" works by blocking oblique or scattered rays of light light, while allowing aligned light rays to pass through the filter. This has the effects of reducing reflections, increasing color saturation, deepening the color of the sky, etc. Sometimes for a particular image these are desirable... but for other images the can be unwanted effects. For example, IMO, a polarizer would have ruined the following image, by reducing or eliminating the colorful reflections of the sunset off the water, wet sand and rocks...
For the above I wasn't looking for the "creamy water" effect of a long shutter speed and wanted depth of field from near to far, so used a smaller aperture... For that reason I also didn't use a neutral density filter.
I disagree. Step rings make it difficult or impossible to use a good fitting lens hood.... which I consider an important accessory. For that reason, IMO it's better to buy filters in the correct sizes for each lens. But you might only need a particular type of filter with a certain lens... for example I rarely use either a polarizer or ND on longer telephotos. Most often I use them on wide angle lenses, occasionally on normal or short tele lenses. You can prioritize and initially only buy the size and type of filter most likely to be used... gradually add other types and sizes if and when needed.
Besides... with digital only a few types of filters are needed, so it's really not a problem. You no longer need color correction or conversion, warming and cooling, and many other types of filters that were necessary when working with color film. You also don't need the various specialty filters that were used with black and white film. With digital, all the "old school" filter effects and more are very easily done in-camera or in post-processing.
With film I had more than 100 filters... and I mostly used two sizes of screw-in with step rings, to reduce the number of filters I needed.
Now with digital I only carry three types of filters, in four different sizes. So with a few duplicates I now carry 15 or 16 filters, total. I don't use step rings on my lenses, most of which use bayonet or clip-on hoods that wouldn't be usable with over-size filters and step rings. (I do use some step rings to be able to stack filters of different sizes for storage.)
Neutral density filters come in a wide variety of strengths, from as little as 1/3 stop to as much as much as ten or fourteen stops. Still photographers usually just need two or three fairly strong strengths to "shift" their exposure range significantly, and then can use other exposure factors to fine tune their exposure, to get the effect they want. Videographers may need a more different strength ND, since they have less flexibility with other exposure factors.
ND filters are often used to allow a slower shutter speed than would be possible without the filter, for deliberate motion blur effects. They also are sometimes used to be able to use a larger aperture than would normally be possible, for shallower depth of field effects.
A polarizing filter can be used as a relatively weak form of ND filters. But polarizers have additional effects... In simple terms, "polarization" works by blocking oblique or scattered rays of light light, while allowing aligned light rays to pass through the filter. This has the effects of reducing reflections, increasing color saturation, deepening the color of the sky, etc. Sometimes for a particular image these are desirable... but for other images the can be unwanted effects. For example, IMO, a polarizer would have ruined the following image, by reducing or eliminating the colorful reflections of the sunset off the water, wet sand and rocks...
For the above I wasn't looking for the "creamy water" effect of a long shutter speed and wanted depth of field from near to far, so used a smaller aperture... For that reason I also didn't use a neutral density filter.
Quote:
Get a size that fits your largest lens and buy adapters for your narrower lens so you only buy them once. Same for all filters
I disagree. Step rings make it difficult or impossible to use a good fitting lens hood.... which I consider an important accessory. For that reason, IMO it's better to buy filters in the correct sizes for each lens. But you might only need a particular type of filter with a certain lens... for example I rarely use either a polarizer or ND on longer telephotos. Most often I use them on wide angle lenses, occasionally on normal or short tele lenses. You can prioritize and initially only buy the size and type of filter most likely to be used... gradually add other types and sizes if and when needed.
Besides... with digital only a few types of filters are needed, so it's really not a problem. You no longer need color correction or conversion, warming and cooling, and many other types of filters that were necessary when working with color film. You also don't need the various specialty filters that were used with black and white film. With digital, all the "old school" filter effects and more are very easily done in-camera or in post-processing.
With film I had more than 100 filters... and I mostly used two sizes of screw-in with step rings, to reduce the number of filters I needed.
Now with digital I only carry three types of filters, in four different sizes. So with a few duplicates I now carry 15 or 16 filters, total. I don't use step rings on my lenses, most of which use bayonet or clip-on hoods that wouldn't be usable with over-size filters and step rings. (I do use some step rings to be able to stack filters of different sizes for storage.)
Mar 9, 2017 13:14:36 #
will47 wrote:
I understand that a neutral density filter is used to shoot at slower shutter speeds. But what is the difference using an ND and perhaps using a polarizing filter (if appropriate) and a smaller f stop? Thanks.
A circular polarizer is used to reduce or remove glare and doesn't alter the shutter speed buy maybe a half a stop. They are only effective under certain circumstances where the sun is mostly at about 90 degrees from the subject. A ND filter is like sunglasses (unpolarized) to slow shutter speeds down for various effects. I'd google it if I were you so that you can see what different effects can be had with a ND filter. Some people might use one with 10 stops during the day to achieve longer shutters than 30 seconds which most cameras have as a limit. Some people might use a 2 or 3 stop just to slow down the shutter enough to use a speedlite during the day and keep the sync speeds correct. Some might use one that is graduated so they can reduce the light in the horizon but have an accurate exposure of the foreground. There are many uses for ND filters.
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