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What is the Camera's Dynamic Range?
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Dec 25, 2016 10:49:00   #
John_F Loc: Minneapolis, MN
 
And depending on the camera's creation of a raw file, you might or might not get pixel values of 0 - 16383. With my Sony a6000 and later a6300 and experiment showed that a raw 6,000 by 4,000 pixel image file occupied shade over 25,000,000 bytes of computer storage. Therefore, the raw image could not exceed 8 bits per pixel. A 14 bit depth per pixel 6,000 by 4,000 pixel image would have to exceed 42,000,000 bytes. I would suggest every different camera owner perform such image file size tests to see if you are getting what you think.

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Dec 25, 2016 10:55:43   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Grnway wrote:
... The technical analysis that I, admittedly, just glossed over has caused me to skip the eggnog and go straight for the bourbon. ....

That can be forgiven. Technical analysis is tedious compared to a simple example.

Here is an image of the same low DR scene I used in my earlier example. I metered at ISO 800, f/8 and the camera suggested 1/10 sec for the exposure. I set the camera on manual, f/8 and 1/10 and captured seven images from ISO 100 through ISO 6400. Since each image received the same physical exposure, each image should have the same S/N ratio. Changing the ISO only changed the numeric values in the raw file.

Then I adjusted the Exposure (gain) slider in Capture one Pro by +3, +2, +1, 0, -1, -2, -3 Ev. Can you see any difference in the images?

You might in the last one because it went a tiny bit beyond the raw file's DR numerical limit of 16,383.

ISO 100 +3 Ev
ISO 100 +3 Ev...
(Download)

ISO 200 +2 Ev
ISO 200 +2 Ev...
(Download)

ISO 400 +1 Ev
ISO 400 +1 Ev...
(Download)

ISO 800 +0 Ev
ISO 800 +0 Ev...
(Download)

ISO 1600 -1 Ev
ISO 1600 -1 Ev...
(Download)

ISO 3200 -2 Ev
ISO 3200 -2 Ev...
(Download)

ISO 6400 -3 Ev
ISO 6400 -3 Ev...
(Download)

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Dec 25, 2016 11:06:16   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
All of this matters only to a point. Display technology, without getting esoteric (and very expensive), and printer technology - is not nearly as good as our cameras when it comes to DR. BUT - tonemapping and human perception allows us to "see" wider dynamic range than these media can actually represent. . . Just sayin'

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Dec 25, 2016 11:41:57   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
TriX wrote:
The best DSLRs have a dynamic range of 11.5 -12 stops, while the human eye, if you consider both dark adapted (scotopic), light adapted (photopic) and the median area (mesopic), has a range of approximately 20 stops. Since photos are usually viewed while light adapted (photopic vision), 10 stops is probably a good estimate.

Exactly! Compared to human vision (extremely wide adaptable DR) and digital capture (very wide DR), in the final analysis it all has to be reduced to a printable image.

If you look at the Zone System description, that range is only about 5 zones for detail (III through VII), 7 for texture (II through VIII) and 9 for tonality (I through IX).

An image displayed on a screen has only about one stop more DR than a print. That's because a print depends on light reflected from its surface.

That also explains what some viewers don't like about HDR - it is not credible. On the other hand, fanciful can be artistic.

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Dec 25, 2016 11:48:34   #
Julian Loc: Sarasota, FL
 
selmslie wrote:
There are two aspects of dynamic range:

1. The capacity of the sensor itself (100%)
2. The numeric capacity of the raw file (for 14 bits, a value up to 16,383)

When there are more photons reaching the sensor than it can record for a particular pixel, it fills up and can go no higher than 100%. For most cameras at base ISO, when a pixel reaches 100%, all of the corresponding bits in the raw file will have a value of 1 (numeric value 16,383) and no higher value can be recorded.

At less than 100% of the sensor’s capacity any of the bits for that pixel might be 0 or 1 and the corresponding numeric values will be between 0 and 16,383. For a totally dark pixel, the sensor will record 0% and all of the corresponding bits in the raw file will be 0 and the corresponding numeric value will be 0.

At base ISO, if the capacity of the sensor has not been exceeded, the capacity of the raw file will not be exceeded either. The full dynamic ranges of both the sensor and of the raw file are being used.

What happens if you then drop the exposure in half and double the ISO (gain)? The sensor will only see values from 0 to 50% but the raw file will still record numeric values of 0 through 16,383. The recorded image will look just as bright so you may not see any change in the image – yet. The full numerical dynamic range will have been used but only half of the sensor’s physical dynamic range.

Repeat this and the sensor will only see values from 0 to 25% but the raw file will still record numeric values of 0 through 16,383. You can keep going. What is happening is that, although you are using the full numeric dynamic range of the raw file, each time you cut the exposure in half you are also discarding half of the remaining dynamic range of the sensor.

By the time you reach ISO 6400 you will only be using 1/64th (1.56%) of the sensor’s physical dynamic range but the recorded image will look just as bright because the raw file still contains values from 0 to 16,383. What has been happening to the noise? Each time you doubled the ISO (gain) you also doubled the numeric value of noise in the raw file. Your signal to noise ratio has been cut in half at each step, except for a little more effort the camera might apply to noise reduction at higher ISO values. You probably started to see some noise at around ISO 800 or 1600 and it continued to become more apparent the higher you pushed it.

As soon as you go above the cameras's base ISO it becomes possible to exceed the raw file's numeric dynamic range without actually exceeding the sensor's physical dynamic range. The pixel will be recorded as blown out with a value of 16,383 but the sensor's photon limit may not have been reached.

When someone says they are using the camera’s full dynamic range by using ETRTR/EBTR, if they are not also using base ISO, they are referring only to the raw file’s numeric representation of the image. They are not accessing the full dynamic range of the sensor.
There are two aspects of dynamic range: br br 1. ... (show quote)


A 14-bit binary string = 16,384 not 16,383

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Dec 25, 2016 11:55:09   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Julian wrote:
A 14-bit binary string = 16,384 not 16,383

There are 16,384 values from 0 through 16383.

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Dec 25, 2016 15:11:29   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
TriX wrote:
Thanks for The detailed explanation and serious thought on this oft debated subject. As you note, the usable dynamic range can be bounded by the sensor or A/D on the the high end and noise on the bottom, and we can choose to use that range however we think best. If we have a camera with wide dynamic range and a low or medium scene DR, then you have lots of DR to play with and can underexpose to give ourselves lots of room on the high end (to prevent blowing out highlights). On the other hand, if your particular camera has a lower DR at base ISO, and/or you need high ISO because of shutter speed & DOF requirements and low light, then you need to be more careful as to how you use the DR you have available - depends on the camera, the scene and the exposure requirements.

Very similar to audio recording. When DR was limited to 60 dB or so because of tape and LP noise, the recording engineer pushed the gain right up to the limit- very close to overload and distortion (and occasionally beyond). But with the advent of DAT tape, dbx encoding and digital audio, suddenly they had 90 dB to work with and could allow a bit more headroom to prevent overloading on peaks without audiable noise.

Rather than follow specific rules, we need to understand the limitations of our equipment and processing and learn to judge light and the DR of the scene we're photographing. Personally, I find the old zone system (and an occasional spot reading) still most useful for evaluating a scene.

Happy Holidays everyone. My guests are arriving, and I'm fixing myself a drink 😈
Thanks for The detailed explanation and serious th... (show quote)


In audio recording and broadcasting, we use dynamic range compression and peak limiting devices to avoid distortion or over-modulation AND to raise the average loudness of program material or music. This has always been true in pro audio. Now, we use software to do it, even to the point of simulating older hardware.

Adjusting curves in digital image post production is the photographic equivalent.

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Dec 25, 2016 16:01:11   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
burkphoto wrote:
In audio recording and broadcasting, we use dynamic range compression and peak limiting devices to avoid distortion or over-modulation AND to raise the average loudness of program material or music. This has always been true in pro audio. Now, we use software to do it, even to the point of simulating older hardware.

Adjusting curves in digital image post production is the photographic equivalent.


Yep, dbx compression is a classic example of dynamic range (2:1) compression, (and their expanders are often used to undo some of the derogatory effects of peak limiting, which compresses and limits dynamic range). Over-compression and peak limiting in broadcast has long been used to give the signal more "dial presence", especially by AM broadcast stations. Unfortunately, the result is a signal with limited DR. It's not unusual to see less than 20 dB of DR (if that), especially from pop music stations. Digital recording has allowed the record/playback chain to achieve realistic DR that approximates that of the human ear, but it hasn't addressed the issue for standard broadcast stations who are concerned with SNR, "dial presence", and (supposedly) over modulation, but what's surprising is how few stations even own a spectrum analyzer and have no method for actually measuring peak modulation or modulation index or harmonics.

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Dec 25, 2016 16:27:55   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
TriX wrote:
Yep, dbx compression is a classic example of dynamic range (2:1) compression ...

Getting back to the topic, there is no compression being applied in the example above. If you look very closely you might find some clipping in the last image - also a problem with audio as has been mentioned.

Nevertheless, the subject matter was selected to provide a clear demonstration of the limitations of DR with simple reflectance from a flat scene. Both the painting and the photo to its right (yes, it's not level) are limited to a DR of about five and a half Ev as are all of the other flat surfaces facing the camera. Only the light reflected from the acrylic covering the photo and the uneven surface of the painting have any chance of exceeding that limit.

What surprised me was, given that there may have been a DR of more than 5 stops in the subject, that by adding three stops at each end of that range there was no visible deterioration in the colors or tones of the image as recorded by the camera. So in this case the camera's sensor easily reaches a DR of about 5+3+3=11 Ev without producing any visible defect at either end of the range.

This might have been a serious problem thirteen years ago when Michael Reichmann developed ETTR but it is just no longer an issue.

I can only conclude from that that the proponents of ETTR/EBTR have not actually performed such a test recently or that they do not fully understand the concept of the two aspects of a cameras DR.

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Dec 25, 2016 16:41:52   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
TriX wrote:
Yep, dbx compression is a classic example of dynamic range (2:1) compression, (and their expanders are often used to undo some of the derogatory effects of peak limiting, which compresses and limits dynamic range). Over-compression and peak limiting in broadcast has long been used to give the signal more "dial presence", especially by AM broadcast stations. Unfortunately, the result is a signal with limited DR. It's not unusual to see less than 20 dB of DR (if that), especially from pop music stations. Digital recording has allowed the record/playback chain to achieve realistic DR that approximates that of the human ear, but it hasn't addressed the issue for standard broadcast stations who are concerned with SNR, "dial presence", and (supposedly) over modulation, but what's surprising is how few stations even own a spectrum analyzer and have no method for actually measuring peak modulation or modulation index or harmonics.
Yep, dbx compression is a classic example of dynam... (show quote)


Radio broadcasters extend listenable range on AM, and improve car radio intelligibility relative to road/engine noise, using compression. It's a necessary evil.

Both VU and peak level meters have been part of radio transmitters for a long time. The stations I worked for in the 1970s used consulting engineers with the right test gear to set up their audio chains from consoles to antennae.

On AM, the DR was between 15 and 20db! On FM, it was about 30db, tops. That was deliberate.

In my late teens, early 20s --- college radio days --- I thought all compression was wrong and evil. Working for several AM/FM broadcasting companies taught me the value of it. Most people listen in their cars most often. The "quiet" parts of the signal have to be loud to be heard above engine and road noise.

Internet radio doesn't need much compression because most users are at home, or wearing headphones on their smartphones.

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Dec 25, 2016 16:44:01   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
burkphoto wrote:
Radio broadcasters e ....

I appreciate your participation but please relate to the original topic.

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Dec 25, 2016 18:10:14   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
selmslie wrote:
I appreciate your participation but please relate to the original topic.


Comparisons are relevant. Think about what COULD happen with sensors --- with a peak limiter to prevent exposure saturation, and a compressor to squash the DR to the range of the paper or monitor, many scenes would be captured that are elusive now.

HDR achieves some of this, but with serious limits on the subject matter. EBTR helps for some subjects.

But there will always be a use for dynamic range control.

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Dec 25, 2016 18:35:57   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
burkphoto wrote:
Comparisons are relevant. Think about what COULD happen with sensors --- with a peak limiter to prevent exposure saturation, and a compressor to squash the DR to the range of the paper or monitor, many scenes would be captured that are elusive now.

HDR achieves some of this, but with serious limits on the subject matter. EBTR helps for some subjects.

But there will always be a use for dynamic range control.


Sounds like you're proposing a non-linear sensor response as you approach saturation (then expanding in PP?). The real answer to avoiding compression/expansion (and the attendant ill effects) is always increased dynamic range (whether imagery or audio).

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Dec 25, 2016 19:09:11   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
TriX wrote:
Sounds like you're proposing a non-linear sensor response as you approach saturation (then expanding in PP?). The real answer to avoiding compression/expansion (and the attendant ill effects) is always increased dynamic range.

There are differences between sensors and the software that records the image.

It is significant that my two cameras appear to exhibit what what was described in your thread Further on ISO invariance. Both of them appear to produce a proportional response to changes in ISO throughout their normal ISO range.

There are some cameras that do not (are not invariant).

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Dec 25, 2016 19:27:30   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
selmslie wrote:
There are differences between sensors and the software that records the image.

It is significant that my two cameras appear to exhibit what what was described in your thread Further on ISO invariance. Both of them appear to produce a proportional response to changes in ISO throughout their normal ISO range.

There are some cameras that do not (are not invariant).


Yes. A different, but highly interrelated concept. My camera is definitely NOT ISO invariant (by either of the current definitions), so underexposing and bringing up in post is not an option for me. Not a problem, just need to understand the limitations of your tools and how to work within those boundaries...

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