Peterff Loc: O'er The Hills and Far Away, in Themyscira.

We have had some lively discussions in the last few days about sourcing cameras.

Some have involved Henry's of Canada and a potentially misidentified camera 'recertified' by Nikon and sold by Henry's. Another has been between our very own MTShooter and the normally well regarded B&H.

My question is about where does responsibility lie, and especially so about gray (or grey) market products?

It seems that Nikon USA will not perform repairs on their own products without a USA warranty. That may not be accurate, but seems to be a consensus opinion. Is this the same for other vendors? Not just honoring a warranty, but also performing a repair at some agreed cost? Warranty I can understand, but a repair at a quoted cost? That seems an interesting business practice.

Secondly, when buying refurbished or used equipment, is warranty the most important thing? Whether it is 90 days, 1 year or five years, isn't the ability to have the product repaired more important?

For example, and I'll choose Nikon and B&H as the example as a result of recent discussions. If I buy a 'gray market' camera from that has a 1 year B&H warranty that develops a problem 18 months after I buy it, will B&H still fix it for an agreed cost? If so, I don't see too much of a problem. If not, I could see that might be an issue if I can't get it fixed elsewhere as a result of Nikon USA policy, but if I can get it fixed by the supplier (B&H) in this example what is the problem?

How do other vendors and dealers deal with these situations?

What happens to my 1976 Canon AE-1 that I bought in the UK? Can someone fix it if needed (it doesn't need it) if they are able? Should I worry about that?

Are these discussions actually a real problem, or is it just a make believe issue? Warranty is one thing. Paid repairs are another.

Is this industry standard practice about not being able to get a repair, or is this just a Nikon predatory practice? What is the practice for Canon, Pentax, Sony, others etc.?

Is there a real problem, or do a few people just have unrealistic expectations or other motivations?

What does the UHH community think? Consider this to be an unofficial and informal survey of your sentiments...

robertjerl Loc: Corona, California

I know why the companies are reluctant to accept gray market. Contracts with the importers or their US/Canadian subsidiaries.
But I see some problems with too rigid a policy.
a. Someone moves to the US and has a lot of gear, the company is going to refuse to work on it???
b. Someone is on vacation, camera stolen or broken, they buy one where they are and bring it home from the vacation. The company refuses to work on it or honor the warranty?
c. Military or others working/living overseas buy cameras and then bring them home when they return and the company refuses to work on them or honor the warranty.
These three could produce more than a bit of customer ill will. They need to have a person/department to review things on a case by case basis and certify gear bought this way. It just makes for happy customers.

I brought Miranda Sensorex 35 mm gear home from my 2 years in Nam (bought in a big post exchange in Japan on R&R) and when the built in light meter died (warranty had run out) Miranda USA (or whatever they were called) fixed it without a blink at a fair price. My only complaint, the built in light meter was a 1 degree spot sold only in Japan, they replaced it with the 5 degree model sold in the US. For precision work I bought a 1 degree meter that I still have in a box somewhere around the house. A few years ago I found it while looking for something, put in a battery and it still worked, almost 50 years old now and it still worked, that thing is very well built. Maybe I need to dig it out and use it a bit.

LFingar Loc: Claverack, NY

So far as I know, Canon will repair any of their products, with or without a USA warranty. The difference is that if your product does not have a USA warranty Canon USA will charge the going rate for the repair. Same as if your warranty had expired.
I read the discussion you referred to regarding B&H and I am of the opinion that the Nikon in question could have been labeled more clearly. I attribute that to an oversight or carelessness for the lack of any evidence indicating intent. Considering their stellar reputation and my own experience with them, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
I've also dealt with MT Shooter in the past and found him to be both knowledgeable and very honest, but I don't agree with the way in which he presented this. His eagerness to publicly bash B&H seems to contain more then a little bit of self promotion for his own business, IMO.
As far as buying gray market: Know what you are buying. Know the risks, and buy from a company with a good return policy. Just in case.

mas24 Loc: Southern CA

There was a post some months ago that some private USA repair vendors would repair select gray market Nikon DSLR cameras. From my understanding, if you buy Nikon USA, they will repair with a USA warranty. If you buy abroad from an authorized Nikon dealership, and register the serial number you are good for USA repair. Valid invoice needed for warranty. If you buy abroad and not from authorized dealership, it is gray market and Nikon USA will not repair it. You have to send it to the country you bought it from to get warranty service. However, if a Nikon gray market DSLR camera is out of warranty, I see no reason for Nikon not wanting to repair if owner is willing to pay. As for Canon equipment, it may be a different story.

jcboy3

Gray market needs to be identified clearly by any seller. As in the case with Nikon, there can be serious consequences (like warranty and repair). If you can't get your item repaired because of gray market policy, that's a serious risk that should impact your cost/risk analysis when deciding whether to make a purchase.

In the case with the B&H incident, I have not seen a statement to the effect that a gray market item was shipped by mistake. The intended country was covered by a sticker. Return of the item took some iteration. The item listing has not been updated to indicate that the items for sale are gray market. It is not reasonable to require a buyer to guess that inclusion of a B&H warranty implies that the item is gray market. And there is no mention of what happens after the 1 year warranty period has expired; but I would expect that a D750 would have many years of useful service with or without repair. Not to mention that there have been at least two recalls on the D750 (one affected mine).

In fact, I commend MTShooter for bringing this issue to our attention. I wish B&H had taken a more proactive response to this issue. I see no reason for MTShooter to wait until his issue is resolved, and if so to keep quiet about it. Less knowledgable people may not realize what they have bought until it is too late. In fact, given the current state of this issue, I expect that many people will face problems in the future because of this.

Look, I have purchased many items from B&H, and am working on an additional purchase now. But I think this is a serious issue that should be resolved, and at this time I don't think B&H have properly handled it.

davidrb Loc: Half way there on the 45th Parallel

You have made a minor mistake in your assumption. Nikon USA does not manufacture anything. They are a distribution company that buys photography equipment from Nikon and re-sells it in the USA. There are other distribution companies that do the same thing but in a other areas of the world. Somewhere in all the piles of paper and in all the words written to create multi-national global conglomerates can be found the legal descriptions of who gets repair responsibilities and how they are to be compensated. "Grey" market items are thorns in the sides of Nikon and all their distributors, as are all other companies involved in international business. It seems Nikon, and others are taking the "buyer beware" attitude about "grey" items. This topic can be talked to death but that won't change anything. Nikon, and others, will fix anything that bears their name, but it will be under their dictated circumstances. You do not like those circumstances? Fine, go find another repair facility. This is just a fact of life, and there is little we can do about it.

LFingar Loc: Claverack, NY

My complaint about MT Shooter's posting isn't about him relating the issue he had. It's about how he did it. A professional statements of facts concerning what occurred is what I would expect from the owner of a camera shop who knows full well that things don't always go as they should in retail sales. B&H is under no obligation to air their side of the story, although I certainly would be interested in what they would have to say. So far we have only heard one side of the story. Based on that, and unless other facts are presented, I will still give B&H the benefit of the doubt and chalk this up to a mistake, not an intentional deception.

Rongnongno Loc: FL

And I still have to send a lens to Nikon since..... August 2015!!!!

Maybe I should do it Monday.

jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY

As most of us know, "Nikon" is a big company based in Japan that makes many products. "Nikon USA" is a Nikon authorized company in the USA that imports and repairs. They make a profit from the sale of cameras, and that profit pays for warranty repairs. If they repair a camera that was intended for sale in Germany, they would be paying for that without having made the profit from the sale.

If Nikon Japan reimbursed Nikon USA for warranty repairs, that would be good for everyone. As for not making any repairs on non-USA cameras, I can understand Nikon USA not wanting to encourage people to buy gray market items.

dcampbell52 Loc: Clearwater Fl

First of all, Nikon USA will honor valid warranties on ANY Nikon camera purchased in it's legitimate retail area. That is to say, Nikon will repair a camera that was sold IN EUROPE to a valid Address in Europe or to a person from the United States that was on vacation in Europe, Asia or anywhere else and has proof that was the case (copy of hotel registration, airline travel voucher or whatever). Nikon USA will NOT honor warranty on Grey Market cameras that (according to serial numbers) were intended for sale outside of the United States but were sold by Non-Nikon authorized dealers in the United States. This would be similar to a person purchasing a new Ford from a Dodge dealer that happened to have gotten the Ford from a Ford dealer that either went out of business or needed to buy 100 cars and could only sell 20. The Dodge dealer isn't a Ford dealer and it would be unfair to other Ford dealers to have to support and repair this car as a new original owner. The person who purchased the car from the Dodge dealer is NOT the original owner, the Dodge dealer (who purchased the car from the Ford dealer is the original owner and should be the one to have to repair or arrange for the repair of the car. The new car "license" is not transferable. Once the Dodge dealership purchased the car from Ford, it became a USED Car and there was no warranty carried over. (Note: Most new cars do NOT have a new car warranty passed on to a secondary owner but some manufacturers may have relaxed this in the case of leases etc.). This is NOT the case for camera equipment. The owner would be the company (Steak and Ale comes to mind as they are not an authorized Nikon Dealer) that is the original owner of the camera and responsible for its repair. There is no difference from these Non-Nikon camera stores buying a camera or 1000 cameras and selling them to the public than there is from you, the individual photographer doing so. They are NOT an Authorized Dealer so they are the end user. Just as the Dodge dealer is the "end user" of the Ford they purchased. On their purchase, the Ford became a USED Car and not new. Now, it may have only had 4 miles on the odometer and anyone that purchased it would have gotten a great used car but, it is still a used car and they would not (should not) take it back to a Ford dealership expecting to get warranty repairs on that car. It is USED not NEW. As I have stated, Nikon USA will repair new Nikons purchased in Non-USA markets if the user can prove that they were in that market when they purchased the camera (airline ticket, hotel bill, passport entry, anything similar) but they will NOT repair a camera that was sold in the United States by a non-Nikon dealer. Now, Adorama, B&H and a couple of large mail-order houses that ARE Nikon dealers will sell Non-USA Nikons in the United States, but they will stand behind the warranty themselves using THEIR repair facilities rather than Nikons. There is an additional reason for this on lenses. Nikon USA gives the purchaser of a Nikon lens purchased from an Authorized Nikon dealer in the US the full 5 years (1 year normal warranty and 4 years add on) automatically. Lenses purchased outside of the USA are only given a one (1) year warranty and the additional four (4) years of extended warranty can be purchased at extra cost. So, if you were in Germany on vacation and purchase a Nikon lens while there, chances are that you only got a 1 year warranty on that lens UNLESS you purchased the additional 4 years. In the US this is automatic.
There is no grand scheme to defraud Nikon users in the USA, in fact it is the other way around. If you are a NON-Nikon USA dealer you are selling unauthorized (you probably bought the inventory of some dealership in Burma that was going under or was over stocked for pennies on the dollar) and are attempting to sell your cameras and lenses here at a discount and glossing over the fact that it was not a Nikon Authorized purchase. YOU (the Non-Nikon USA dealer are NOW the original end user purchaser of the camera equipment and ONLY YOU can have the camera repaired under warranty. But you, the NON-Nikon USA dealer have now resold the camera so you are no-longer the owner. The camera can not be repaired under warranty by NIKON USA. Nikon carries this one step further by stating that they will not repair ANY grey market camera because, once they have repaired that camera (they go through the entire camera and do their best to return the camera to nearly new condition) they then warranty that camera against ANY defect for a period of time. So, in effect, the grey market purchaser could take his/her camera and send it in and pay a fee for some minor repair and then have that camera warrantied for 90 days or what ever the new warranty period is. Then they could sell the camera and warranty (because they just legally proved that the warranty WAS INDEED transferable).
This isn't some grand scheme against camera owners, it is an attempt to support the legitimate Nikon Dealers. And we have all seen the Camera dealers going by the wayside. When Ritz Camera went under, it caused a huge issue with camera inventory. There were several "inventory reduction companies" that came in and purchased certain Ritz Camera Store inventories and then sold the cameras off a pennies on the dollar. They tried to claim that these cameras had "FULL NIKON WARRANTIES". This was not the case, they purchased these cameras from Ritz and were NOT an authorized Nikon Dealer themselves so they (according to the US District and US Supreme Courts) became the end user/ purchaser and thus when they resold the cameras, they were now used. Ritz also was an authorized Nikon Repair facility and had hundreds of Nikon customers' cameras in for repair. Nikon arranged to have those cameras transferred to Nikon Melville (and Nikon California) and repaired there (NOTE: this also included cameras that were out of warranty but were Nikon cameras needing repair). Should Nikon USA repair a camera (out of warranty) that is a grey market camera? maybe but should that camera be repaired under warranty? NO!!!

Pat518 Loc: Upstate New York

I recently bought a used Nikkor 35mm lens how can I tell if it is a USA product there was no documentation and I don't see a serial #. In fact there is no visible # on any of my 1990's lenses. It would be easy for someone to launder grey market products as used. Maybe I am missing something.

jcboy3

I bought a used Honda and got warranty work done on it until it passed the warranty criteria of age/miles. As far as I know, most automobile warranties carry over, and do not have "original purchaser" restrictions.

dcampbell52 Loc: Clearwater Fl

The serial number is in the black area on the bottom of the lens (normally) near where the lens mates with the camera. Generally, it is difficult to see because of the newer black metal paints used. You might try using a small dab of white shoe polish on a rag lightly rubbed across the area to lighten any depressions. Be VERY careful not to get the polish on any moving parts or glass. Don't use chalk or any powder as it might get into the lens. Also use a magnifying glass to look at the lens before doing anything. You might see it that way without applying and foreign substances.

Pat518 Loc: Upstate New York

How do I check the numbers for country of origin?

dcampbell52 Loc: Clearwater Fl

The warranties on used cars varies and depends on whether the used car was purchased at a (in your case) Honda Dealer, a dealer that also had a Honda Dealership or Joes used cars down the street. Also, it depends on whether you purchased it from another purchaser or a dealer. If the car was purchased from the original purchaser, then (more than likely) there was no warranty. Also, used cars purchased from dealerships may be covered under that dealership's warranty program. It would be very difficult for XYZ Honda to sell used Hondas vs private individuals if they didn't either offer discounts or "extended" warranties. In addition the car sales requirements vary from state to state and while it might not have been a good explanation, it was the best example that I could come up with to make a point. Yes some automobile manufacturers offer transferable warranties (possibly) but If I had said Mercury Outboard Boat motors or Schwinn Bicycles, people would either have also thrown out exceptions or wouldn't have understood. Everyone can understand the principle on the automobile even if there are exceptions.