singleviking Loc: Lake Sebu Eco Park, Philippines

Where in the bible does it say that GOD proclaimed that a marriage is only between man and a woman? Hell, Solomon had numerous wives. Not that I'm gay, but this quote seems to be directly out of the NEW REVISIONIST'S BIBLE. If Gay couples can now adopt kids and raise them, then the rights of having all the benefits of that chore, like tax advantages,surviving spouse, social security, should all be given as well. Thus far, this has been a state issue, but as of yesterday, this has become part of the present issues by our candidates for the highest office. :thumbup: :thumbdown: :?:

ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.

“The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision.”

-- Lynn Lavner

singleviking Loc: Lake Sebu Eco Park, Philippines

That may be so, but these admonitions did not come from GOD as some of the opponents have suggested. These are man made codes or edicts. And let's face it, Man , as a species, hasn't proved ourselves perfect, at least not as yet. Evolution is an ongoing process as is education.

gmcase Loc: Galt's Gulch

How about taking the government out of marriage altogether and allow individuals the right to contract between themselves any way they voluntarily choose? It's called freedom.

singleviking Loc: Lake Sebu Eco Park, Philippines

I think that's what this issue is all about. It seems that the state's now determine individual rights as well as emancipation age. How about one nation under the same rules and laws? This partison bickering sure sounds like bible thumping to me.

gmcase Loc: Galt's Gulch

I firmly believe in state's rights but I don't believe a state should limit be able to limit any constitutional rights such as violating freedom of speech, et al. Free volition contractual rights should not be infringed by the State and should be backed by courts for enforcement. I believe individuals should be free to do whatever they want as long as it does not violate another's right to life, liberty or property. Two males, two females or a male and female should be able to structure their free volition contracts between themselves without a structure being preordained by the State.

Freedom is risky and sometimes disgusting to some people but the alternative is much worse. History is replete with examples.

singleviking Loc: Lake Sebu Eco Park, Philippines

As state's rights are now stipulated, each state can have more stringent laws than the Federal Statutes, but not less. To allow 2 states to have no manditory emancipation laws or allow judges to make determination without any evidence in support of a state's court decision, seems to be rediculous, as does having any state make same sex marriage outlawed.
And the constitution guarrenties the right of "LIFE, LIBERTY, PROPERTY AND THE PERSUIT OF HAPPINESS". Originally, only property owners were allowed to vote, but this evolved with time and change of circumstance. It seems as if more naturalized citizens know their rights and the constitution than naturally born citizens of late. I guess CIVICS is not one of the mandated subjects under Bush's "Leave no student behind" testing program.

Roger Hicks Loc: Aquitaine

Much like thinking, really.

In the 1970s, as a teacher in his 20s, I was stuck at a new school with teaching 'citizenship'. I went in on Day 1 and said, "OK: What is 'citizenship'?"

A lad at the back (often the most interesting people in any class) stuck up his hand and said in a sing-song, dismissive voice, "You teach us to be good little citizens."

They were well surprised, and quite pleased, when I shook my head and said, "No, I teach you to THINK about being good citizens."

A few years after that, I was stopped in the street by a young man who, it turned out, had been in that class. He said, "Us thought us didn't learn f*** nothing in your classes, but looking back on it, us learned more there than in the rest of the ****ing school put together."

I'm glad I wasn't his English teacher, but otherwise, what a wonderful compliment!

As for marriage, I always liked Tibetan law. Polygamy? No problem. Polyandry? No problem. Divorce? No problem. Marriage was a civil affair, as agreed between the parties. Religion had no real say in it, though of course, lamas might be called to bless the union. Of course, priests can be called upon to bless anything. When I lived in Malta as a boy, the blessing of the boats was an annual festival. But for the most part, priests never tried to tell sailors their business. They would be well advised to do the same for married couples, unless the married couples ask them.

Cheers,

R.

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

One thing that's relevant to this topic and what you pointed out Roger; is that your answer assumes one thing: That there is no transcendent creator who has the right to decide what the rules are as they pertain to those He created.

We all start from a "grid of assumptions" when we suss out what we think about a subject; in this case "marriage" we all start with a presupposed batch of "facts" on which we hang all other "facts"...i.e. what a legal move in chess is... :)

I start with the presupposition that there IS a God who Has spoken on this subject and so I come to a very different conclusion that you do.

You (seem) to start with the assumption that we have the right to do as we please as if there is no creator who has sovereignty over us.


Keep in mind, I'm not trying to defend one view or the other...that's much too big for this thread, but I'm just pointing out that your comment was based on your presupposed starting point.

singleviking Loc: Lake Sebu Eco Park, Philippines

My premise was that this can not be decided by congress or in Washington and they have no right to even attempt such premise or adopt one religion's GOD or none-GOD over any other. This is the basis of our seperation of Church and State as stipulated by the Constitution.
According to what was said, someone from Congress stated that "GOD had deemed marriage as the union of a male and a female." I think this is not the word of GOD, but the edict of religious leaders since the Bible by it's nature is written my men and not GOD. The last written anything from GOD was the 15 commandments and Moses dropped 1 tablet so there were only 10 left. LOL. (Mel Brooks)

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

Not to get into a peeing contest, the separation only stipulates that men have the right to worship as they choose and the state cannot stop them or force them to become part of the "state religion." it has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Harvey Loc: Pioneer, CA

Some where waaaaaay back in time it seems someone took offense to the fact that some men & some women were not doing what they personnaly thought they should be doing as they were created for - mating with the opposite sex - so personal pleasure and happness of a few was deemed "wrong" - It would stand to reason that over the past 1,000s of years - especialy over the past 50 yrs it might become logical that with all the 10s of 1,000s birth defects just maybe some Males & females might have had some genes mixed up - I sure now that contempt prior to investigation leads to wrong answers - untill one has spent hours, days or years closely in communication and contact homosexual people - one has no right to judge them.

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

Let's use your logic.

A person cannot make a judgement about another person's behavior unless they've spend hours, or years in close communication and contact with them....otherwise they have no right to judge.

Ok...have you spent hours, days years in close contact with (for example) me?

Using your logic you can't make the judgement you just made.

Roger Hicks Loc: Aquitaine

Then again, surely Christians believe in free will? Also, you have to assume that God has spoken through (fallible, biased) human scribes who wrote down what He told them, and not just what they thought was a good idea...

Cheers,

R.

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

Roger,
I'm not (exactly) sure what you mean by free will but if you mean that humans make choices based on their desires I'd heartily agree....yes...I do.

I do believe that God has spoken through men and the product is the bible, yes. I do believe that If God is what the book says he is, then it's possible for Him to have fallible humans write whatever He intended to have them write...warts and all.

But to summarize...yes...that's my presupposition.