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Sharpest Aperture?!
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May 31, 2016 10:58:00   #
camerapapi Loc: Miami, Fl.
 
I read Ken Rockwell's article and it is too complicated for me. With a big format cameras small apertures work well because those lenses are not very fast. I would not say, and I am no expert in optics, that f13 is the optimal aperture of a lens.
It is well known since the beginning of photography that larger apertures are sharper than smaller ones because of the lack of refraction. It is also well known that with large apertures lenses tend to loose resolution at the edges of the images. It seems to me there is a compromise here which is even more compound when we use zooms of variable apertures. In general most lenses are sharper 3 stops closed from their maximum aperture.
Diffraction is something I have heard a lot of during the years. I have no issues using f16 in many of my shots when I need depth of field. I enlarge to 13x19 and my eyes have not been able to tell a significant difference when using 35mm type cameras or cropped sensors. I never was able to tell the difference either when I was using medium format film cameras.
I do not use depth of field which by the way is a rarity today with modern lenses but I do use many times when in doubt the depth of field preview. To me and it is my personal opinion, it is more accurate than depth of field.
Many photographers become obsessive with sharpness and many do not seem to understand that sharpness depends a lot on how we use our cameras. The most professional camera and the sharpest lens will not produce good results if we do not do our part.
Today the majority of the lenses made are of excellent optical quality. I consider f8 as an excellent alternative to great photographs regardless of the lens in use since most of the time f8 happens to be in the middle of the aperture range.

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May 31, 2016 11:15:40   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
camerapapi wrote:
I read Ken Rockwell's article and it is too complicated for me. ...

It's too detailed (eyes glaze over) to be of much use to anyone but it might make a good read if you have the time to pay attention and read it critically.
camerapapi wrote:
... I consider f8 as an excellent alternative to great photographs regardless of the lens in use since most of the time f8 happens to be in the middle of the aperture range.

That's pretty much what I do by default for full frame (24x36 mm). I only deviate from that to get a shallower DOF for closer focus distances or more DOF for landscapes. That keeps things simple.

For medium and large format I am usually looking for as much DOF as I can get because the subject matter is different so I usually work at about the diffraction limit and use longer exposures on a tripod.

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May 31, 2016 11:32:52   #
Mark7829 Loc: Calfornia
 
selmslie wrote:
You can easily test your own lens yourself. Don't rely on someone else to do it for you unless you have not bought it yet.


Like I said, the manufacture like Nikon has published a listing of their lenses and their sharpest aperture. Chromatic aberration, distortion, vignetting interfere with sharpness while a lens's coating enhances. Sharpness is not a value in itself but rather a combination of values that are at optimum at a a tight range of aperture and usually low. Almost all lenses are sharp at center but that does not make it a good lens.

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May 31, 2016 12:03:23   #
John_F Loc: Minneapolis, MN
 
Screamin Scott wrote:
Diffraction robs sharpness at F13 as opposed to F8, especially on a crop sensor camera.


All light when passing an edge refracts, each wavelength by a different amount. Whether that is noticeable depends on factors such as the leaves of a diaphram. The higher the f-stop the smaller the diaphram and the more readily the diffraction will be noticeable. The one factor that is irrelevent is the light receiving medium, be that a projection screen, camera film, or digital camera sensor.

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May 31, 2016 12:22:01   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Mark7829 wrote:
Like I said, the manufacture like Nikon has published a listing of their lenses and their sharpest aperture. ...

If you can find that information before you buy, it can help. If you already own the lens you may have no choice other than to test it yourself.

It is probably safe to assume that all decent lenses perform within the ranges that we have discussed here.

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May 31, 2016 12:27:29   #
Mark7829 Loc: Calfornia
 
selmslie wrote:
If you can find that information before you buy, it can help. If you already own the lens you may have no choice other than to test it yourself.

It is probably safe to assume that all decent lenses perform within the ranges that we have discussed here.


A good lens is much more than sharpness, and then it is up to the photographer to use light and composition to achieve the best results. Even an iPhone in the hands of an experienced photographer will do better than the sharpest lens in the hands of a amateur.

http://www.ippawards.com/2015-winning-photographs/

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May 31, 2016 12:36:58   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Mark7829 wrote:
A good lens is much more than sharpness, and then it is up to the photographer to use light and composition to achieve the best results. Even an iPhone in the hands of an experienced photographer will do better than the sharpest lens in the hands of a amateur.

http://www.ippawards.com/2015-winning-photographs/

Now we are really getting far from the OP's question.

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May 31, 2016 12:39:06   #
jimmya Loc: Phoenix
 
folkus wrote:
When I Googled "Sharpest Aperture" I found Ken Rockwell's discussion ("How to Select the Sharpest Aperture"). It seems to fly in the face of what I have heard in the past and wondered if I had stumbled on a neat photography improvement for my photo adventures or was it "out to lunch". I know a bunch of you hard and grizzled UHHers will tell me to go try it and find out for myself - quit being lazy, Folkus, you'll say. BUT. there may be others that would like to engage in the subject. His article speaks to Nikon, Canon, Leica, and Pentax users so I thought there might be an interested audience. He gives many examples but the one that struck me was where the lens DOF scale says use F/8, he says F/13 gives the optimum sharpness. All discussions are welcome, but I suggest that you read the article before you challenge it to vehemently. Come on - - let's play.
When I Googled "Sharpest Aperture" I fou... (show quote)


I'm not challenging the article just stating... with my go to lens, Canon 28-200, my sharpest is f/10 especially with long (time) exposures at night.

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May 31, 2016 13:12:03   #
Mark7829 Loc: Calfornia
 
selmslie wrote:
Now we are really getting far from the OP's question.


Not really. Many are so focused on sharpness and have said that if their lens were sharper they could take better pictures. That is not reality. Technology will not lead to better pictures as much as a mastery of light and composition. In fact so many award winning images are not sharp at all. Art trumps technology every time.

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May 31, 2016 13:18:14   #
folkus
 
Hi Apaflo - thanks for attempting to bring the duscussion back to best sharpness A C R O S S a depth of Field. Much apprecisted. Folkus.

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May 31, 2016 13:25:08   #
Retina Loc: Near Charleston,SC
 
This is what I learned, and seems to make sense. There is always some diffraction past a partially stopped aperture. At larger apertures, the amount of non-diffracted light through the open part of the lens is great enough to mask the cloudy parts of the image caused by diffraction. F/64 on a normal lens for an 8X10" camera presents a much larger lens opening than, say, f/32 on a similar lens for a 1x1.5" camera, while light's wavelengths are the same for both. Wavelength interacting with the physical dimensions of the lens/iris system are directly involved with the problem of diffraction. Large format photographers were also concerned with diffraction but on a different scale because their lenses were bigger for the same filed of view than with the miniature cameras used by most of us.

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May 31, 2016 14:34:20   #
RRS Loc: Not sure
 
anotherview wrote:
While so, the physical phenomenon of diffraction introduces a growing blurring of images as the aperture narrows from an aperture more in the middle of the aperture range -- typically at f/7.1 to f/8, at least for modern DSLRs.

I understand master photographers like Ansel Adams shot an aperture of f/64 to maximize image sharpness. Maybe this difference has something to do with the medium, one film and the other a sensor.

I expect the knowledgeable ones here will elaborate on this topic to enlighten the rest of us.
While so, the physical phenomenon of diffraction i... (show quote)


As for Ansel Adams , f/64 but what lenses did he use and what was the max aperture of those lenses. I know that he didn't use "fast" lenses. I've shot with 4x5,5x7 and 8x10 cameras and the old lenses were time consuming but also fun to work with. It had to be sharp SOOC because he didn't have sharpening available as we do today.

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May 31, 2016 14:48:10   #
n3eg Loc: West coast USA
 
selmslie wrote:
You can easily test your own lens yourself. Don't rely on someone else to do it for you unless you have not bought it yet.


Follow the Cambridge chart or test it yourself. I checked my camera and lens, and found that with m4/3 and an adapted Canon lens it was exactly what the chart said. Even a half stop above f/5.6 I could see diffraction. From there down to f/1.8 it was fine. I used a towel on a wall for the test.

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May 31, 2016 15:38:07   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Mark7829 wrote:
Not really. Many are so focused on sharpness and have said that if their lens were sharper they could take better pictures. That is not reality. ...

Of course not. The OP was simply asking at what point the image becomes sharpest. I don't think he was assuming that sharpness is the ultimate goal for a good image.

Sharpness across the entire image continues to improve (along with several other optical qualities) as you stop down until diffraction starts to become visible.

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May 31, 2016 16:14:30   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
RRS wrote:
As for Ansel Adams , f/64 but what lenses did he use and what was the max aperture of those lenses. I know that he didn't use "fast" lenses. I've shot with 4x5,5x7 and 8x10 cameras and the old lenses were time consuming but also fun to work with. It had to be sharp SOOC because he didn't have sharpening available as we do today.

Adams was using large format film and correspondingly longer lenses. A normal lens for 4x5 is about 150-180 mm and it is twice that for 8x10. At f/64 a 300 mm lens has a diameter of 300/64, 4.7 mm. A 50 mm full frame lens at f/16 has a diameter of 50/16, 3.1 mm. So Adams would have had less diffraction at f/64 that you would with a full frame normal lens.

You may not recall that high acutance developers increase the appearance of sharpness in a negative.
n3eg wrote:
Follow the Cambridge chart or test it yourself. I checked my camera and lens, and found that with m4/3 and an adapted Canon lens it was exactly what the chart said. Even a half stop above f/5.6 I could see diffraction. From there down to f/1.8 it was fine. I used a towel on a wall for the test.

Diffraction is actually related to the size of the negative but for digital it can also be affected by the size of the pixel at the sensor. See http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/diffraction-photography.htm

The smaller your format the sooner you will observe diffraction. A m4/3 sensor is significantly smaller than full frame.

A 24x36 film format is not diffraction limited at f/22 but a 24 MP sensor is limited at f/16 and a 36 MP sensor is diffraction limited at f/11.

Regardless of the calculations, diffraction does not suddenly happen. Like most lens phenomena, it comes on gradually as you reduce the aperture.

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