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Was the Nuremberg Tribunal a valid trial? - Occupied Germany 1946
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May 9, 2016 09:20:56   #
sr71 Loc: In Col. Juan Seguin Land
 
Thank you Richard again for history... love em keep em comin.



pegasusphil wrote:
Muddled it up with dropping two horrendous nuclear bombs and mudering millions in Japan, ......


Pega ... If those 2 Bombs hadn't been used then the whole of Japan would have become an Iwo JIma 10 times over for both the American and Japanese casualties. Saved a lot of live in doing so....

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May 9, 2016 09:31:33   #
phlash46 Loc: Westchester County, New York
 
sb wrote:
Very interesting. The history in the textbooks is very sanitized - little mention of the controversies surrounding historical events. But it does remind me of the saying that "war crimes are what the loser is guilty of" which seems continually true - given that in our recent history we participated in and attempted to justify activities (kidnapping, imprisoning citizens without charges, waterboarding) that previously were considered war crimes and unconstitutional by our government.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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May 9, 2016 09:44:24   #
WessoJPEG Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
 
f8bengal wrote:
I take a dim view of passing judgement on 1945-46 actions filtered through 2016 lens. Who can know the pain being felt at that time from the thousands of American and allied dead? And who can know the sure potential of thousands more Americans that would be killed by a land invasion of Japan if the bombs had not been used? Fire bombing of Japanese cities before the nukes killed many more civilians than the nukes did; yet they would not surrender. I respect Truman's decision because it was made through 1945 eyes and not 2016 eyes.
I take a dim view of passing judgement on 1945-46 ... (show quote)


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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May 9, 2016 09:47:54   #
Avabash Loc: Lymington, Old England.
 
Pegasusphil wrote God bless Americans....won the war for us....with help from the British,Poles Czechs,Russians,Canadians, Australians,New Zealanders,Indians, Pakistanis,Free French, Nigerians and many others.
NO further comment !

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May 9, 2016 09:51:51   #
phlash46 Loc: Westchester County, New York
 
pegasusphil wrote:
God bless the Americans..... won the war for us, fixed the dysfunctional justice system of European countries, then eradicated communism, saved SE Asia from the scourge, liberated the Middle East and S. America, and even managed to capture an Enigma machine and end the Second World War early - oh no, I forgot , that was Hollywood that did that. Muddled it up with dropping two horrendous nuclear bombs and mudering millions in Japan, and ending the war early. American justice was imposed on Europe in 45/46, just as most things American are imposed around the world. You know what's good for us......
God bless the Americans..... won the war for us, f... (show quote)


Not a fan of The Donald, but, given your view of history, perhaps we'll stay home next time and let you muddle through on your own...

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May 9, 2016 09:55:08   #
Croce Loc: Earth
 
mikedidi46 wrote:
I remember sitting in that courtroom in 2014 while on a river cruise. I do not know it that was a valid trial or not. But the people on trial were getting what they deserved in the court of opinion for what they did under the guise of WAR. That may be cruel to some people.


I agree, selective genocide is not by any stretch of the imagination, war, and to apply the rules of war to acts of genocide would be folly. I see no application of ex post facto here, despite the ungentlemanly actions of the Russians and French.

Oh, and incidentally, Justice Jackson was not the Chief Prosecutor at Nuremburg, Spencer Tracy, was. :roll:

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May 9, 2016 10:01:02   #
Croce Loc: Earth
 
f8bengal wrote:
I take a dim view of passing judgement on 1945-46 actions filtered through 2016 lens. Who can know the pain being felt at that time from the thousands of American and allied dead? And who can know the sure potential of thousands more Americans that would be killed by a land invasion of Japan if the bombs had not been used? Fire bombing of Japanese cities before the nukes killed many more civilians than the nukes did; yet they would not surrender. I respect Truman's decision because it was made through 1945 eyes and not 2016 eyes.
I take a dim view of passing judgement on 1945-46 ... (show quote)


Amen!

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May 9, 2016 10:06:07   #
Croce Loc: Earth
 
Avabash wrote:
Pegasusphil wrote God bless Americans....won the war for us....with help from the British,Poles Czechs,Russians,Canadians, Australians,New Zealanders,Indians, Pakistanis,Free French, Nigerians and many others.
NO further comment !


No one would assert that we did it on our own. For some reason or other many Brits are the ungrateful bastards emulated by this post of yours. To which I say, Phuck you and Pagasusphil!

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May 9, 2016 10:20:33   #
ole sarg Loc: south florida
 
I am surprised the Soviets allowed a balanced bench. What did the French do? Really the US and British forces mopped up what was left of the German Army. The Soviets beat the Germans in WWII just look at casualties and destruction on both sides. Churchill's strategy was to let Joe do it.

Military Casualties (approx)


Axis
German 5.3 million 5 million on eastern front
Romania 300K
Hungry 300K
Italy 319K

Allies
France 43K
UK 384 K
France 210K
US 183K

USSR 11 Million

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

There was no conflict of interest. The only injustice delivered was to those who suffered most and outside of the Jews it was the Soviets!

I suggest you see Judgement at Nuremberg and then retract this nonsense.



RichardQ wrote:
If anybody could be named as the "father" of the International War Crimes Tribunal in 1945-1946, it was 54-year-old Robert H. Jackson, an Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court. He took a year's leave of absence from Washington and went to Nuremberg.

Since a Supreme Court Justice organized the Tribunal and served as the Chief Prosecutor, who would dare challenge the validity of the proceedings? The Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, 74-year-old Harlan Fisk Stone, that's who.

Chief Justice Stone wrote, "Jackson is away conducting his high-grade lynching party in Nuremberg. I don't mind what he does to the Nazis, but I hate to see the pretense that he is running a court and proceeding according to common law. This is a little too sanctimonious a fraud to meet my old-fashioned ideas."

Another Supreme Court member, Justice William O. Douglas, was equally dubious. He later wrote that in Nuremberg the Allies were "substituting power for principle ... I thought at the time and still think that the Nuremberg trials were unprincipled. Law was created ex post facto to suit the passion and clamor of the time."

Apparently Justice Jackson had some testy relationships with his Washington colleagues. Perhaps that was due to the fact that he did not graduate from any law school, although he did attend the Albany Law School for one year. Reportedly, in the minds of the Yale, Columbia and Harvard graduates, he was a "county-seat lawyer."

They under-estimated Jackson. He was a forceful man, considered by many lawyers to be the best writer on the Court. Jackson was a strong advocate of due-process protections against over-zealous federal agencies at home, and a fierce proponent of American values in Nuremberg.

Organizing and driving an unprecedented multi-national trial demanded his assertive personality. Yet he was willing to bypass some of the conventions of the American and British legal systems in order to merge with the very different French and Russian systems.

The result was a procedural hodge-podge that dissatisfied legal purists but which functioned. The world public wanted the Nazis punished for their actions, including outrages which were legal under domestic laws passed by the elected German Parliament in peacetime.

American and British lawmakers cringed at the precedent set by infringing on Nazi Germany's legal pre-war sovereignty.

In October, 1945, Jackson bluntly advised President Truman of the contradictions permeating the International Tribunal. "The Allies themselves have done or are doing some of the very things we are prosecuting the Germans for," he wrote.

"The French are so violating the Geneva Convention in the treatment of prisoners of war that our command is taking back prisoners sent to them. We are prosecuting plunder and our Allies are practicing it. We say aggressive war is a crime and one of our Allies asserts sovereignty over the Baltic States based on no title except conquest."

But the German defense lawyers were prohibited from citing any of those points in their arguments.

Perhaps the greatest irony was to have the Soviet Russians prosecuting and judging the same Nazis who were their partners in the joint 1939 invasion and occupation of Poland.

Talk about a conflict of interest!
If anybody could be named as the "father"... (show quote)

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May 9, 2016 10:28:45   #
ole sarg Loc: south florida
 
Well if you were able to manage yourselves you wouldn't need us and we would prefer that your were able!

And when all those conflicts (WWI, WWII, Korea, etc.) were over, what did we do? Did we stay and conquer? Did we say, "Okay, we defeated Germany. Now Germany belongs to us? We defeated Japan, so Japan belongs to us"? No. What did we do? We built them up. We gave them democratic systems which they have embraced totally to their soul. And did we ask for any land? No, the only land we ever asked for was enough land to bury our dead. And that is the kind of nation we are.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Colin_Powell

I always found there is a grain of a lack of gratitude for what the US has done, especially for England.

I suggest you visit Normandy our grave markers grow row by row!



pegasusphil wrote:
God bless the Americans..... won the war for us, fixed the dysfunctional justice system of European countries, then eradicated communism, saved SE Asia from the scourge, liberated the Middle East and S. America, and even managed to capture an Enigma machine and end the Second World War early - oh no, I forgot , that was Hollywood that did that. Muddled it up with dropping two horrendous nuclear bombs and mudering millions in Japan, and ending the war early. American justice was imposed on Europe in 45/46, just as most things American are imposed around the world. You know what's good for us......
God bless the Americans..... won the war for us, f... (show quote)

Reply
May 9, 2016 10:29:59   #
Steve_m Loc: Southern California
 
Richard, your knowledge of WWII era is amazing. Any chance we can expect it in a book form?
Thanks for your posts.

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May 9, 2016 10:42:07   #
travelwp Loc: New Jersey
 
The Nuremberg Tribunal was every bit as valid as the 911 report !

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May 9, 2016 10:50:38   #
PNagy Loc: Missouri City, Texas
 
Good job, RichardQ.

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May 9, 2016 11:03:31   #
WessoJPEG Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
 
Croce wrote:
No one would assert that we did it on our own. For some reason or other many Brits are the ungrateful bastards emulated by this post of yours. To which I say, Phuck you and Pagasusphil!


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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May 9, 2016 11:06:19   #
WessoJPEG Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
 
Croce wrote:
No one would assert that we did it on our own. For some reason or other many Brits are the ungrateful bastards emulated by this post of yours. To which I say, Phuck you and Pagasusphil!


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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