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WoW B&H Sued by US Government for Discrimination
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Mar 4, 2016 21:33:06   #
Violameister Loc: michigan
 
Jim Bob wrote:
Make sure you consider the cases where the people and businesses have been justifiably..."hounded by the legal system." Contrary to your post, these situations are no where near as one-sided as you suggest. As I indicated earlier, neither party has a monopoly on the truth or virtue for that matter. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you learn to face life as it really exists rather than how you might wish it.


Just about forever our legal system has operated under the idea that it is better to release X number of guilty persons than to falsely convict and punish one innocent one (Blackstone, 1760)(B. Franklin, 1770) That is why I spend more time concerned with those hounded unjustifiably than those justifiably hounded.

Just because you might disagree with someone, does not mean they are not aware of life or are untutored. I realize many things and have experienced much in my 76 years.

You may have noticed that I have not demeaned you in any way even though I might disagree with you on several issues.

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Mar 4, 2016 21:39:45   #
Violameister Loc: michigan
 
Bobspez wrote:
Looks like B&H hasn't been too lucky there.
http://www.law360.com/articles/37768/b-h-photo-pays-4-3m-to-settle-discrimination-suit
In 2007 they paid $4.3 Million to settle a case brought by the EEOC that they discriminated against hispanic warehouse workers. in 2007 B&H denied the allegations but under the terms of the consent decree, B&H agreed to equalize the wages of its Hispanic employees compared to their non-Hispanic counterparts. B&H also agreed to adopt an anti-discrimination policy and take part in employer training.

The current lawsuit alleges that they hired 100 hispanic warehouse workers in Brooklyn between 2011 and 2013, and not a single black or Asian worker. And that hispanic workers get paid less than white workers and that few non-white workers are promoted.

It could be the Department of Labor had them under scrutiny because of the previous case, and is pursuing this case because they continued practices they said they would change in the 2007 agreement.
Looks like B&H hasn't been too lucky there. b... (show quote)


I know nothing of this case other than what has been posted here. But I do have questions. Why, if they are being abused so badly, don't the Hispanic employees simply go elsewhere to work? Could it be that no one else will hire them? How many left for jobs elsewhere?

Why no Asian employees? Maybe they qualify for higher paying jobs elsewhere. How may applied and were turned down?

How many Blacks applied and were turned down? Possibly they feel uncomfortable among so many Hispanics. Possibly they don't like that kind of work.

The point is, simply looking at total numbers employed without looking at all the possible explanations and ruling those out is a patently unfair process. I hope the system does a good job of looking at both sides and makes a just decision.

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Mar 5, 2016 01:46:43   #
Bobspez Loc: Southern NJ, USA
 
Seems like all of your hypotheticals only consider that B&H is innocent, and the employees don't have valid and honest disagreements or legal rights that are being violated. Like the song says... until it happens to you, you won't know how it feels.
Violameister wrote:
I know nothing of this case other than what has been posted here. But I do have questions. Why, if they are being abused so badly, don't the Hispanic employees simply go elsewhere to work? Could it be that no one else will hire them? How many left for jobs elsewhere?

Why no Asian employees? Maybe they qualify for higher paying jobs elsewhere. How may applied and were turned down?

How many Blacks applied and were turned down? Possibly they feel uncomfortable among so many Hispanics. Possibly they don't like that kind of work.

The point is, simply looking at total numbers employed without looking at all the possible explanations and ruling those out is a patently unfair process. I hope the system does a good job of looking at both sides and makes a just decision.
I know nothing of this case other than what has be... (show quote)

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Mar 5, 2016 09:14:56   #
Violameister Loc: michigan
 
Bobspez wrote:
Seems like all of your hypotheticals only consider that B&H is innocent, and the employees don't have valid and honest disagreements or legal rights that are being violated. Like the song says... until it happens to you, you won't know how it feels.


The indictment already assumes that B&H is guilty, and addresses none of the possible alternatives, of which I mention only a few. I don't need to mention guilty possibilities; the indictment already does that.

As the preamble to my last post points out, our legal philosophy has a long history of assuming innocence until proven guilty. I follow that, and hope the system does also. I hope the system looks at alternatives rather than focusing narrowly on appearance of guilt. Of course, it is the responsibility of the defense attorneys to assure there is as much balance as possible in the evidence presented to the court. OTOH, the power and financial resources of the Federal govt. is so great that the incentive to simply give up and pay something without admitting guilt is often overwhelming.

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Mar 5, 2016 11:53:10   #
Bobspez Loc: Southern NJ, USA
 
The presumption of innocence is largely something that you have to pay lawyers to get. For most of the justice system at every level you are guilty until proven innocent. It's not just the federal government. It works that way for average people on everything from criminal charges to parking tickets. Even for people who can afford tens of thousands of dollars to fight criminal charges, the lawyer will often advise an innocent client to take a favorable deal, rather than risk long term prison sentences at the whims of a jury. In a jury, as in all court cases, the people who make the best arguments usually prevail. For prosecutors a deal is a win, so they will use the threat of much greater punishments if the deal isn't taken.
Violameister wrote:
The indictment already assumes that B&H is guilty, and addresses none of the possible alternatives, of which I mention only a few. I don't need to mention guilty possibilities; the indictment already does that. That long history you speak of is, in many places, a fiction.

As the preamble to my last post points out, our legal philosophy has a long history of assuming innocence until proven guilty. I follow that, and hope the system does also. I hope the system looks at alternatives rather than focusing narrowly on appearance of guilt. Of course, it is the responsibility of the defense attorneys to assure there is as much balance as possible in the evidence presented to the court. OTOH, the power and financial resources of the Federal govt. is so great that the incentive to simply give up and pay something without admitting guilt is often overwhelming.
The indictment already assumes that B&H is gui... (show quote)

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Mar 5, 2016 12:53:17   #
RixPix Loc: Miami, Florida
 
Jahawk wrote:
b&hheader

Things haven’t been going well for B&H Photo Video, one of the biggest names in the photography retail industry. Just months after being slammed with accusations of mistreatment and discrimination and seeing its workers protest and unionized, B&H is now being sued by the US government for discrimination.

The US Labor Department announced its lawsuit on Thursday, accusing B&H of violating federal requirements at its Brooklyn camera gear warehouse.

B&H “has systematically discriminated against Hispanic employees and female, black and Asian jobseekers at its Brooklyn Navy Yard warehouse,” the government says. B&H is a federal contractor, so it’s forbidden from discriminating in employment and is required to take affirmative action for employment equality.

“B&H fell far short of this responsibility and created deplorable working conditions for employees at its Brooklyn warehouse,” says Patricia A. Shiu, director of the Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs.

B&H warehouse workers unionized in November 2015 after days of public protests.

The government has some specific and serious accusations against B&H as a result of a review conducted between January 2011 and January 2013.

One is that B&H required Hispanic warehouse workers to use separate restrooms from other employees — bathrooms that are unsanitary “and often inoperable,” the government says.

The lawsuit also accuses B&H of only hiring Hispanic men into its entry-level laborer positions (excluding both women and black and Asian workers), compensating Hispanic workers less than white ones, subjecting Hispanic workers to harassment, failing to keep proper records, failing to provide designated bathrooms and changing facilities for women, and more.

You can read the full text of the lawsuit here:

“OFCCP filed its complaint after determining that it was unable to secure a voluntary agreement from B&H to take corrective action,” the government says. It’s demanding that B&H provide relief for the affected workers, lest it cancel B&H’s government contracts (worth $46 million) and permanently ban it from future contracts.
b&hheader br br Things haven’t been going wel... (show quote)


This is a religious freedom issue...just like Hobby Lobby.

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Mar 5, 2016 13:24:07   #
Violameister Loc: michigan
 
Bobspez wrote:
The presumption of innocence is largely something that you have to pay lawyers to get. For most of the justice system at every level you are guilty until proven innocent. It's not just the federal government. It works that way for average people on everything from criminal charges to parking tickets. Even for people who can afford tens of thousands of dollars to fight criminal charges, the lawyer will often advise an innocent client to take a favorable deal, rather than risk long term prison sentences at the whims of a jury. In a jury, as in all court cases, the people who make the best arguments usually prevail. For prosecutors a deal is a win, so they will use the threat of much greater punishments if the deal isn't taken.
The presumption of innocence is largely something ... (show quote)


I do not disagree with what you say. You will note that my previous post "hoped" it was different (at least sometimes, somewhere.)

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Mar 5, 2016 13:33:01   #
Bobspez Loc: Southern NJ, USA
 
Violameister wrote:
I do not disagree with what you say. You will note that my previous post "hoped" it was different (at least sometimes, somewhere.)


:thumbup:

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Mar 7, 2016 07:34:25   #
Jim Bob
 
Bobspez wrote:
I think everone's reality is based on their experiences. If you have been falsely arrested and forced to pay thousands in legal fees to avoid imprisonment for something you didn't do, then for you the cops and prosecutors are corrupt. If you get robbed and your property is recovered by the cops, then for you the cops and prosecutors are heroes. If your employer doesn't pay you your vacation pay then a call to the Dept. of Labor will get him to send you a check, and the government is your friend. If your water is poisoned and the government agencies turned a blind eye, then the government is your enemy. The truth to every situation is different. Justice truly is blind. The guilty often go free and the innocent are often convicted. Guilt, innocence, right and wrong are often irrelevant to the outcome. That's why I never returned for my second year of law school after passing the first year in 1971. I didn't want to spend my whole life immersed in this Alice in Wonderland logic. It's probably also why I wound up loving my job with computers, which I finally got at the age of 41. You can't BS a computer. It only responds to the correct input.
I think everone's reality is based on their experi... (show quote)

Your first statement is correct. However, good and decent people usually realize their blind spots, biases and demons and make a sustained effort to conquer or subdue them rather than allow them to control their lives. I understand your jaded view about the law. However, when I balance the grief and relief caused by the legal system, I find myself generally thankful for it with significant reservations, of course.

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Mar 7, 2016 07:36:51   #
Jim Bob
 
Violameister wrote:
Just about forever our legal system has operated under the idea that it is better to release X number of guilty persons than to falsely convict and punish one innocent one (Blackstone, 1760)(B. Franklin, 1770) That is why I spend more time concerned with those hounded unjustifiably than those justifiably hounded.

Just because you might disagree with someone, does not mean they are not aware of life or are untutored. I realize many things and have experienced much in my 76 years.

You may have noticed that I have not demeaned you in any way even though I might disagree with you on several issues.
Just about forever our legal system has operated u... (show quote)


Sir, I have not begun to demean you, only to point out that your one-sided view does not fully capture life as it exists. If you find that insulting, then so be it.

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Mar 7, 2016 22:55:41   #
Bobspez Loc: Southern NJ, USA
 
Your views express your experiences, as do mine. Good and decent people are usually the first to trust authority and form their views accordingly. They believe what they are told, but much of it is just a fairy tale. I am pretty certain the majority of people are blind to their blicnd spots. Thy don't want to face them and can't change them. That's why debating religion or politics or almostr anything never changes anyone's mind, it just creates a stronger attachement to people's own opinions. Look up cognitive dissonance. It is and always has been the strongest part of most people's belief systems.
In my 69 years, I've had some good friends who were policemen and lawyers. I think the more you know about our legal system first hand, the more jaded you become. The same could be said for the medical profession. You see the corruption of their stated ideals and disregard for justice and for people that is institutionalized.
I have worked with some FBI agents when I was an auditor. They were only interested in their own careers and promotions. The NYPD called the FBI feebs. If I hadn't worked with them personally I would have thought of them as they were portrayed on television. Today TV is more realistic. The Showtime series Billions gives a pretty realistic view of Wall Street and the US Attorney's office.

Jim Bob wrote:
Your first statement is correct. However, good and decent people usually realize their blind spots, biases and demons and make a sustained effort to conquer or subdue them rather than allow them to control their lives. I understand your jaded view about the law. However, when I balance the grief and relief caused by the legal system, I find myself generally thankful for it with significant reservations, of course.

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