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The megapixel debate
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Jan 14, 2016 21:37:02   #
robsphotography Loc: New Zealand
 
LarryFB wrote:
I completly agree with you. I have a 16 Megapixel camera which seems to be great for what I shoot and want to print. I am very happy with 16 megapixels. Yes, depending on cost, some day I may get a new camera at 24 MP, but only because the camera has the features I want, not because it is 24 MP.


I agree, I have used a 16 megapixel camera for years and it has served me very well, except for times when I needed to heavily crop an image, perhaps because a bird was some distance away, or perhaps when I didn't want to get too close to a tiger in the jungle and didn't have a 500mm tele lens with me!

But, if you have a 42mp camera, such as the Sony A7RII, and you only have a 300mm lens with you, if this doesn't give a close enough image of the tiger, then you can crop this image to the same field of view that you would get if you had used, say, a 500mm lens.

In this case, the cropped image (after using a 300mm lens on the 42.4 megapixel Sony A7RII) would give you nearly 16 megapixels, almost equivalent to what you would have got if you had used a 500mm lens on a 16mp full frame camera. So, this can be an important advantage of a 42mp camera compared with a 16mp camera.

Regards
Rob

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Jan 14, 2016 21:39:06   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
Cat,
You started an interesting discussion here. Although I still haven't made up my mind, it is making me think twice about my next body purchase.

I presently have a 16mp full frame and was thinking about a D810 ff 36mp as a second body. It would be slower than the 16mp's 11 FPS. Now with the D500 becoming a reality, I would have a 20mp DX format with a 10FPS shutter.

It's a pleasantly tough decision.

--

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Jan 14, 2016 22:30:15   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
CatMarley wrote:
I don't agree that more detail with more pixels is never mentioned. I think it is repeated all the time. In fact it is the prime selling point of more pixels. I think this article made the point that the eye cannot distinguish those fine details at normal viewing distances, and unless you are doing photomicroscopy those extra details will be lost at normal viewing distance. The need for antialiasing filtration can be eliminated at the sensor level as Fuji has already done. This also reduces moire effect.
I don't agree that more detail with more pixels is... (show quote)

You are missing the point entirely.

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Jan 14, 2016 22:53:05   #
CatMarley Loc: North Carolina
 
lamiaceae wrote:
I have to keep bringing this up: Diffraction is a function only of pixel size (smaller for higher density) and aperture, it has nothing to do with the physical size of the sensor. Does not matter if it is 17x23mm, 24x36mm, or 6x7cm. If you stop down for more DoF (or any reason for stopping down) the image gets fuzzier as the circles of confusion get larger. Canon and Nikon and who ever can not change the laws of physics (quantum mechanics). Cropping due to not using all the sensor is a bad choice in any case but to salvage an image. Use the correct lens and distances. Many people seem to need to actually try it, making large prints to see the diffraction limit effect on pixels (size) and stops. There is plenty of info on the WEB about it.
I have to keep bringing this up: Diffraction is a... (show quote)


Good point. I think very few people know anything about the diffraction effect of small apertures and pixel size. Most of us either never took physics or have forgotten most of it.

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Jan 14, 2016 23:01:40   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
CatMarley wrote:
Good point. I think very few people know anything about the diffraction effect of small apertures and pixel size. Most of us either never took physics or have forgotten most of it.


Tonight I watched week three of a photography class from Harvard. The instructor touched on this saying that in most cases it pays to use F/8.0 or wider with digital cameras. He promised to get deeper into it in the coming weeks.

--

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Jan 14, 2016 23:11:41   #
Cdouthitt Loc: Traverse City, MI
 
I've had images from my old 12mpx e-5 be used on a billboard before. Looked pretty good traveling at 75 mph at 20' wide.

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Jan 14, 2016 23:48:30   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
Bill_de wrote:
Tonight I watched week three of a photography class from Harvard. The instructor touched on this saying that in most cases it pays to use F/8.0 or wider with digital cameras. He promised to get deeper into it in the coming weeks.

--

To explain this simply...

Think of a round focused projector light beam on a wall. If straight on it will create a well defined circle of light. When the light moves from side to side the circle becomes an oval that has the closest edge to the center sharper than the outward.

Divide this wall onto squares, the size of the original light projector circle.

When you look at the outer squares covered by the beams of light they are partially covered by outward light edge. This is where the dis-fractions comes from.

Apply that to the innards of a camera and you get the picture... :mrgreen:

When it comes to closing the aperture... What goes on is that the light gets focused but the circle of 'parasite' diffusion expands, influencing the pixels around it. That is why a wide aperture is better for the color rendition, not the sharpness. A by-product that has been present long before we had digital cameras to play with.

Add the two together and you have a mess in the lens circle of projection outer area.

There is no need to be advanced in physics to understand this, just down to earth observation. Now to calculate and predict how much of the effect is present, one needs to know the formulas.

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Jan 15, 2016 01:05:24   #
SteveR Loc: Michigan
 
dirtpusher wrote:
only thing i see need for is to make better murals out of the picture.


You can't beat that Muriel.

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Jan 15, 2016 02:35:44   #
Macronaut Loc: Redondo Beach,Ca.
 
Besides effectively increasing the zoom by cropping, there's the other end of it....Macro. I can effectively increase magnification of my lens without getting a razor thin DoF. I also like having the option of closely cropping anything I care to. Lots of MPs is just another tool to achieve what I want. I agree that the vast majority of people and types of photography may never need all those MPs. However, I would not be without them.

I also intend to make use of them when I start using my big zoom, to get me even closer.

I have included a photo of just one example of how I personally can make use of all those 36MPs. These are just jpegs, the TIFFs look even better. Pretty much impossible with 16 or 24 MP. (Please double download). Each of the largest eyes is about 1.5mm across.

Just because some don't see any uses for mega, mega pixels, doesn't mean there's not any ;)

Heavily cropped
Heavily cropped...
(Download)

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Jan 15, 2016 03:11:59   #
joer Loc: Colorado/Illinois
 
CatMarley wrote:
I don't remember where I picked this up, it is not mine, but thought it would make a good topic for discussion.

The megapixel myth
OK, so the sensor’s good, but there are only 16MP. This was probably the one thing that put me off most at first. As I mentioned, I started out with an 8MP 20D, then upgraded to a 12MP 5D, then a 21MP 5D Mark II, then a 24MP Sony A99, and each time I considered it an improvement. And it was – the sensor in each camera was better than the previous model – but how much of this could be attributed to the increase in megapixels and how many megapixels do you actually need? If you’re shooting high end fashion, or architectural work that will be blown up to the size of a house and then inspected with a magnifying glass, then you need a fair amount, but how many do the rest of us typically need?

The human eye can only resolve a finite amount of detail (see this link for a detailed explanation). At best this is somewhere around 200 points or dots per inch (DPI) so if you have an image from an X-T1 that produces images that are 4896 pixels by 3264 you can create a 24.5&#8243; print. At this size of print, even if we add more megapixels we’re physically incapable of perceiving the extra detail.
When we create a larger print wouldn’t more megapixels be an advantage? For example, with a file from a D800 (7360 pixels by 4912) you can create a print that’s almost 37&#8243; wide at 200 DPI. On the face of it then, more megapixels equals higher quality large prints, but this doesn’t take viewing distance into account.

Viewing distance is normally taken to be 1.5 the diagonal size of an image, so a 6&#8243; x 4&#8243; print would be viewed at about 11&#8243;, a 37&#8243; x 24&#8243; print at 66&#8243;. Because the 37&#8243; print is further away the maximum DPI we can perceive at this range is somewhere around 50: we can’t make out the finer detail because our eyes can’t resolve that level of detail at that distance. Admittedly, you can stick your nose to the print, at which point you may be able to tell the difference between a 200 DPI print from a D800 or a 132 DPI one from an X-T1, but a) these differences will be small, and b) at normal viewing distances the differences between the two won’t be apparent.

Put another way, if you take viewing distance into account anything that shoots at 12MP or above will produce an image with sufficient detail for a high quality print, from a 6&#8243; x 4&#8243; postcard to a billboard across the street.
I don't remember where I picked this up, it is not... (show quote)


All true but it misses the main reason mere mortals need or want high MP cameras.

Its for cropping.

One could spend $12000 on a prime telephoto and hire an assistant to carry it for them or purchase a high MP camera and accomplish just about the same thing with a lessor lens at a fraction of the cost and weight.

Nearly all my images are cropped. You may not like my images but I doubt it will be because the IQ is lacking.

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Jan 15, 2016 03:20:39   #
joer Loc: Colorado/Illinois
 
lamiaceae wrote:
I have to keep bringing this up: Diffraction is a function only of pixel size (smaller for higher density) and aperture, it has nothing to do with the physical size of the sensor. Does not matter if it is 17x23mm, 24x36mm, or 6x7cm. If you stop down for more DoF (or any reason for stopping down) the image gets fuzzier as the circles of confusion get larger. Canon and Nikon and who ever can not change the laws of physics (quantum mechanics). Cropping due to not using all the sensor is a bad choice in any case but to salvage an image. Use the correct lens and distances. Many people seem to need to actually try it, making large prints to see the diffraction limit effect on pixels (size) and stops. There is plenty of info on the WEB about it.
I have to keep bringing this up: Diffraction is a... (show quote)


And one of the biggest disadvantage of crop sensors.

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Jan 15, 2016 03:23:55   #
Macronaut Loc: Redondo Beach,Ca.
 
joer wrote:
And one of the biggest disadvantage of crop sensors.
Yeah, even though I can get "higher" resolution that I can crop a little more with my 7100 24mp APS-C, I seem to get "better" resolution with my 810 36mp FF.

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Jan 15, 2016 04:12:59   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
Personally the idea of a high definition big sensor is better because it can be cropped escapes my comprehension.

When I want a 'distortion alleviated' capture I use only the center square of my camera and stitch three captures when needed. This is the only time I find 'cropping' a solution to anything. It is not about cropping, rotating for composition or for getting 'details'.

If you want folks to appreciates the details of your camera captures you have few solutions, one unpalatable: post your original (bad), other include using programs like google cutter (free) or Zoomify that will allow the viewer to dive in and see the level of detail you really create.

The sensor size has very little to do with the detail capture. The pixel density does. This is why the technology is far from being mature especially that smaller camera that use a small sensor are benefiting from the progress being made.

So, for those who think 'It is enough for me', you are absolutely right, you do not need anything else. Being complacent after all is not a cardinal sin, just a sign that you like GES and believe that 'what is good enough for me is good enough for anyone else'. Well excuse me if I want progress and am never satisfied.

More is better. More made us progress from caves to the houses we live in. More is what made us discover we live on a wet dirt blue ball. More is what made us search means to improve lives. More is progress. 'Good enough' is stagnation. Enjoy your putrid stagnating pool, just do not be surprised if someone fills it with chemical to kill the parasites in it.

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Jan 15, 2016 04:16:44   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
Macronaut wrote:
Yeah, even though I can get "higher" resolution that I can crop a little more with my 7100 24mp APS-C, I seem to get "better" resolution with my 810 36mp FF.

At any given magnification the D7100 provides a maximum of 127 lp/mm resolution. At the same magnification the D810 provides 103 lp/mm of resolution.

The D810 may have less noise, but the D7100 can provide finer detail. The balancing act revolves around having enough exposure, and low enough diffraction, to actually make best use of the D7100's higher resolution.

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Jan 15, 2016 04:49:34   #
joer Loc: Colorado/Illinois
 
Apaflo wrote:
At any given magnification the D7100 provides a maximum of 127 lp/mm resolution. At the same magnification the D810 provides 103 lp/mm of resolution.

The D810 may have less noise, but the D7100 can provide finer detail. The balancing act revolves around having enough exposure, and low enough diffraction, to actually make best use of the D7100's higher resolution.


All I can say after experiencing both that my preference is a cropped 810/800E image.

Data is good and you may be correct in ideal conditions but I'll go with real world experience and mine may be different than yours.

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