GrandmaG Loc: Flat Rock, MI

I'm using LR CC and I am liking it so far but I'm still having a little trouble deciding how to save my finished images. These questions are all related.

1. I export finished photos in Tiff. Should I also convert to DNG or do this instead of exporting as a TIFF?

2. When exporting as DNG, it seems that I lost the RAW file with all the history states in LR, but if exporting as a TIFF, the NEF and history remains in LR. Is this the way it is supposed to work? Because, if so, then I have no use for DNGs.

3. Then I was trying out Photoshop and the book I’m reading suggests opening an image as a smart object & saving the image as a PSD. I was wondering; why not save as a TIFF?

4. What’s the best way to keep a copy of your finished images?

5. Can (or should) I use a watched folder to send back exported photos? I think this creates redundancy. I have a folder on my desktop (and in LR) titled “2015 Best” to which I export the finished Tiff or DNG, Of course, to see it in LR, I have to import it back in. So then, I got the brilliant idea to create a smart collection for my favorites (per year) with criteria of 3 stars or more (I don’t use 1 or 2 stars at all). Then I select all and sync to LR mobile. Then I got even more brilliant and published this collection to my hard drive (Yup in the same folder that I already had). So now I have duplicates of everything…BUT the new ones were published as TIFFs. The purpose of the “2015 Best” folder is a way to save the finished product. I then copy it and the rest of my folders onto 2 external hard drives. One is connected to the computer and the other I carry with me at all times.

Searcher Loc: Kent, England

I think in a year or two you will end up with thousands of duplicate images in several different formats.

My first question is "Why do you export your finished images?" (I'm not being sarcastic but in order to help with your 4 questions I need to understand your workflow intent).

#2 Do your really have a file "2015 Best" on your desktop, which is not showing in the LR catalogue, but another folder showing in LR called "2015 Best" - are these not the one and the same folder?

Dngallagher Loc: Wilmington De.

1. No need to export as DNG. Exporting in JPG for web sharing and TIFF for printing is fine.

2. DNG is actually ADOBE's raw file. It can be used on import instead of the camera's raw file. For example, I shoot Nikon, so I get NEF files as Nikon's raw. I import them into Lightroom then convert keepers to DNG, then work on the DNG files for export as TIFF or JPG depending on where they are going.

If you EXPORT as a DNG, you should not lose the original file as you are exporting... if you CONVERT then yes you lose the original raw from the camera - it is now a DNG. It will have any edits you applied to the original raw file though.

What you need to understand about camera raw vs DNG - Adobe cannot write to a camera raw file, so it keeps the edits in the catalog, and applies them when you view the file or export it. You can elect to have Lightroom write an XMP sidecar file for each edited raw file which contains the edit and stays with the raw file, or you can convert your camera raw files to DNG, which Adobe can write to, so edits get stored within the DNG files.

3. I believe that PSD's files are a bit more compatible with Photoshop, and compatible is not the right word. I am not an expert by any means, but believe PSD files work better with retaining layer information.

4. I export finished images that then get shared on Flickr. You can also keep copies at any point in Lightroom by creating a virtual copy or a snap shot.

Since Lightroom maintains your edits in the catalog or in sidecar files it is a quick and simple matter to create another copy within a second or two.

5. I would not advise importing back in exported photos - I think it would complicate things. Again, once exported, Lightroom can always export them again with the identical edits.

mdsiamese Loc: Maryland

PSD is a proprietary format that preserves your work for the Adobe software that you are using. TIFF is generic. Use TIFF for images that you plan to share with non-Adobe software or with people that use non-Adobe software. You can use PSD if you are sure that you will always be able to use Adobe software on the image.

The point of using TIFF is this. JPG is a lossy compression, you lose data that can never be retrieved when you compress with JPG. So it is limited as a format when you may need to uncompress the image. TIFF is lossless. Compressing with TIFF allows you to retrieve the compressed information. This is why TIFF is used as a non-proprietary standard for image sharing. You can compress the image somewhat for the transfer/storage without losing data. But if you are certain you are going to keep the image with the Adobe realm, you can probably skip TIFF.

GrandmaG Loc: Flat Rock, MI

Well, since Lightroom is so new to me, I guess I'm worried that somehow I will lose all my edits to my favorite photos...probably a fall-back to "save as". The other reason is that I like to keep all the best images together in one folder instead of spread out since I import by date.

Also, I noticed that when the nef with it's sidecar xmp file are on the hard drive, it's shown w/o the edits (because the edits are written in the sidecar), even when the file is opened there. I suppose I could just move the best files to my 2015 Best folder. If I don't need DNG, TIFF or PSD files, that's one less bunch of files to worry about. I can only see a real need for exporting JPEGs for the purpose of posting on the web or printing offsite.

And, yes, the 2105 Best on my hard drive is the same 2015 Best in Lightroom. I guess I didn't explain it very well. When I published to the hard drive from LR, they exported as TIFF files (because that's how I set it up). That's why I have doubles. So, I got rid of the extra tiff files on my hard drive and everything matches up again.

I am trying to avoid the very thing you predicted would happen with your very first sentence. I have already spent a considerable amount of time cleaning up my documents AND pictures, so now I don't want to make it worse again.

I only imported 2015 into Lightroom and going forward, I'll do all my organizing, developing, exporting, & printing through LR. I would still want my nef files because sometimes I will look at a file in View NX to see where my focus point was to shed light on a focus problem.

After all that, going forward, should I just publish my favorites to the hard drive in their original form? And forget all the other formats, except when I need jpegs to publish or print elsewhere?

GrandmaG Loc: Flat Rock, MI

So you convert keepers to DNG before you edit? What do you do with your Tiffs? Print outside of LR? So, now I understand the difference between exporting to DNG and converting to DNG. Do you convert yours because they take up less space, plus you don't have to worry about the sidecar files getting lost? Even though I don't see the sidecar files in LR like I do on my hard drive, where does LR store them? Just in the catalog?

GrandmaG Loc: Flat Rock, MI

I use my JPEGS for sharing and I used to save them; but now I delete them. TIFF is more of a universal file, then. Isn't the file sent to PS from LR as a TIFF to "Edit in"? Then it is recommended for PS to save it as a PSD? If that happens, what format is it when it comes back to LR?

Searcher Loc: Kent, England

I wouldn't dream of telling you what to do, but I will make some suggestions which you can reject, modify or accept.

As you intend to use LR for asset management (this is why it exists in the form that it does), think about using it something like this:

Set up a folder on the Desktop and name it "Exports", this folder is used only for images exported from LR and the images are not re-imported into LR. The folder is used for example, when you want a/some jpegs for posting or emailing etc.

Forget about using Tiffs on a general basis; they are unnecessary in LR, and are usually too large to email. Even the Hog doesn't want them (the reader has to download from a link instead of the usual quick download button).

There is a time and place for tiff files, but that is becoming rarer these days.

Forget about DNGs; if you use LR Panorama the resultant file is a DNG, but that's fine, it won't interfere with anything, but if you try to export a DNG as a DNG, then you have some of the same problems as using a tiff file. If you email it, the recipient has to be able to open it, if you post it, the website must have a means of extracting the image from the dng file. DNG files on the Hog are viewed via links, just as tiff files.

When you import your NEF files, an XMP file is automatically generated. That's all you really need to know about xmp files, LR looks after them if you do all your manipulation within Lightroom. You need never actually come across one again.

Create a collection "Best 2015", and place deserving images into that collection. (In case you are not aware, a collection is not a folder, so you will not see "Best 2015" on your hard-drive.)

Get rid of the folder "Best 2015" after moving the images from the folder to more appropriate folders.

When you want to edit an image in Photoshop, use the "Edit in" procedure from LR, after the PS edits are done, you can either flatten the image or leave the layers open, just Save (not Save As), the edited image will be returned to LR stacked with the original Nef file as a psd file. If you have saved with all the layers, you can reopen the image in PS and all the layers will be there ready for further manipulation.

You will end up with many Nef files, a lesser quantity of psd files, no tiffs, a few dngs (from the Panoramas) and probably a few jpgs which you have left over from previous or have imported from other sources.

Try to make more use of Collections and less use of folders, your duplicates will diminish, and if you back up your catalogue and your images on a regular (frequent) basis to a external drive, your images are quite safe.

If you need any help or clarification, just ask.

Singing Swan

Gollly..... this all sounds so complicated that now I know I never want to even THINK about having raw capabilities in a camera. This sounds like it takes ALL the fun out of photography. I did garner a bit of information though so thanks for this question and answers. And good luck with your filing system.

Searcher Loc: Kent, England

Its actually much easier and certainly quicker to do rather then write down the how to do it.

The trouble is that people (like me) who attempt to explain things, try to think of all the scenarios that can occur, and this can make the instructions rather convoluted. If I had a better command of the language, maybe my explanations would not appear so complex.

I do avoid all the technical mumbo jumbo, but still need to improve.

I showed one of my efforts to a friend, I thought it was a simple how to do it, and her response was "Would you like tea or coffee?"

That says it all.

Dngallagher Loc: Wilmington De.

TIFF files for me are only an export choice, or what a file is saved in if it comes back into Lightroom as a Photoshop edited file. The edited TIFF's are stored in Lightroom stacked with the original DNG file.

As for converting from NEF to DNG, sidecar files bug me. :)
I see them as extra baggage that Lightroom and my OS needs to look after. By converting all my nefs to DNG I do not have an extra sidecar file for each raw, all my edits are stored within the DNG file (I set write XMP info right away on), DNG can take up slightly less file space vs the 14 bit net's, and Adobe products may use them slightly quicker.

I have found that I lose no raw data by going to DNG as well, and I looked hard.

The sidecar files are real files. Lightroom puts them on your hard drive when you edit a file that it cannot write too, like a NEF - Nikon Raw, to me that made my folders "messy" ;)

I figure with my method, if I have the DNG file then I have everything. Raw data and edits in one file, when viewed in an Adobe product the finished product shows, when viewed in a non adobe product then only the original raw data is shown as an image.

Printing - I do not do much printing yet, I am sure that will come. I normally export prints in the format the printing house requires for upload, mostly JPG using their printing profile.

For web publishing/sharing exports are done from Lightroom to JPG/sRGB color space in the size needed.

Once printed or published the exported files are deleted from my hard drive - the original raw files with edits are still in Lightroom.

Dngallagher Loc: Wilmington De.

Actually, it is pretty simple, AND shooting raw can give you so much more of a chance to pull details out in images and save images that other formats would mean deleting the image.

For me, part of the fun is post processing an image, it makes it interesting.

fjrwillie Loc: MA

Great summary!!!! and I am not even a LR user. There is something in there for everyone that uses other products. For me it is Paintshop Pro

Willie

Mmart0418 Loc: Orting, Washington

Searcher, I love to read your instruction and information regarding LR. I am also a beginner in LR. And your information is very helpful. I have saved quite a few posts by you. Thank you, Maxine

GrandmaG Loc: Flat Rock, MI

I followed everything you said but just need a little clarification. The "Export" folder: Are these typically JPEGS that are deleted eventually? I currently do that, except I named it "JPEGS". Of course, "EXPORTS" would include other file types.

Thanks for answering my questions about TIFF & DNG. I feel the same way about them.

I do have a Collection named 2015 BEST. I populate it from a SMART Collection for 3* or better (Select A and move) so that I can send them to LR mobile.

You lost me at "Get rid of 'Best 2015' after moving the images". I use the same Smart Collection to populate my Best 2015 on my hard drive.

What do you think of the Smart Collection idea?

The only JPEGS I have come from my pocket camera that can't shoot in RAW.