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Is mirrorless "better" than DSLRs these days?
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Apr 26, 2015 14:14:40   #
rbfanman
 
Not "better". Just "different"....apples and oranges. Mirrorless cameras tend to have smaller sensors, and so less IQ. They also have greater crop factors.

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Apr 26, 2015 16:48:16   #
HEART Loc: God's Country - COLORADO
 
Mac wrote:
I agree Bret.
I have too much money invested Nikon lenses to switch right now, but if Nikon comes out with a quality FF mirrorless F-Mount that would be a whole other story.




As of 4/20/15 - rumors. http://www.ubergizmo.com/2015/04/nikon-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-in-the-works-rumor/

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Apr 26, 2015 17:13:31   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
rbfanman wrote:
Not "better". Just "different"....apples and oranges. Mirrorless cameras tend to have smaller sensors, and so less IQ. They also have greater crop factors.


Seems like some people just like to talk, no matter how uninformed they sound. I would suggest that you read up on mirror less cameras instead of giving an opinion. You can have FF, APS-C, or M4/3. Pick your choice. Your IQ comment is also BS. Have you actually made any comparisons? And in case you didn't know, it is the person BEHIND the camera who is taking the picture, not the camera. You don't need to look far to see that a FF sensor doesn't automatically gets you "better" pictures than if one was using an APS-C camera.

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Apr 26, 2015 17:19:32   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
BobT wrote:
I'm especially comparing them to entry level DSLRs. I'm reading statements like this of late. Some, like the recent NEX line state the Nex's have noticeably better IQ than DSLRs. So has the mirrorless surpassed it's main original benefit of just being smaller and lighter? Will pros or semi-pros be looking at these "smaller" cameras as their "main" cameras? All this has me thinking about replacing my DSLR gear with mirrorless.


If you think that by switching to mirror less your pictures will improve, you are mistaken. You may carry a smaller camera more often, and able to get that "one" special shot, but it will not make your shots look better.

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Apr 26, 2015 18:30:12   #
JPL
 
BobT wrote:
I'm especially comparing them to entry level DSLRs. I'm reading statements like this of late. Some, like the recent NEX line state the Nex's have noticeably better IQ than DSLRs. So has the mirrorless surpassed it's main original benefit of just being smaller and lighter? Will pros or semi-pros be looking at these "smaller" cameras as their "main" cameras? All this has me thinking about replacing my DSLR gear with mirrorless.


I would say I am a good judge of this matter. I have several dslr cameras like Nikon D80, D200, D3200 and a more advanced one like the Nikon D600 full frame and have used a D800E for some work also. I also have 2 mirrorless cameras, the Nikon 1 J2 which is at the lower end of the mirrorless crowd in price and IQ and also I have a full frame Sony A7R that is at the very high end of the mirrorless range in terms of IQ. And I can tell you that mirrorless is not at all better, but different. They are better at some things and for some things but dslr is also better at some tings and for some other things. And when it comes to IQ it is not better either. I can tell you that Nikon D800E has better IQ than my Sony A7R. There is not much if any difference in good daylight at low ISO but if you turn up the ISO you do not want to take many pictures with the A7R. And I guess this has nothing to do with mirrorless or not, because it is said to be the same sensor used in both cameras. In this case Nikon has a much better control of the sensor than Sony and manages to get much better IQ at higher ISO than Sony with the same sensor. But I love my Sony A7R for how easy it is to use manual lenses with it with focus peaking and focus magnifier which is also the reason for me to choose A7R over Nikon 800 series camera. And if I continue comparing those cameras I would choose Nikon over Sony for viewfinder if I did not have to use the focus peaking. The only real advantage of the electronic viewfinder is the possibility to use to focus accurately with manual lenses. In all other terms the optical viewfinder is better. I would also choose Nikon over Sony for battery life, for flash, for reliability and some more things. On the other hand I would choose Sony for the compact size, adaptability to all kind of lenses, for the tilt screen and for street photography and some more things. Neither of those would be chosen for their fps rate. There you need cameras with smaller sensors to get good speed and there the mirrorless cameras have some advantages over dslr because you can shoot more fps, but you may have to guess where you are pointing the camera as you do not always have the possibility to follow your subject at high fps.

So what is better is mostly up to you and your needs, rather than the camera or camera system.

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Apr 26, 2015 18:45:40   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
About the viewfinders - that is just "your" opinion. Neither one is better, it is what one prefers.

JPL wrote:
I would say I am a good judge of this matter. I have several dslr cameras like Nikon D80, D200, D3200 and a more advanced one like the Nikon D600 full frame and have used a D800E for some work also. I also have 2 mirrorless cameras, the Nikon 1 J2 which is at the lower end of the mirrorless crowd in price and IQ and also I have a full frame Sony A7R that is at the very high end of the mirrorless range in terms of IQ. And I can tell you that mirrorless is not at all better, but different. They are better at some things and for some things but dslr is also better at some tings and for some other things. And when it comes to IQ it is not better either. I can tell you that Nikon D800E has better IQ than my Sony A7R. There is not much if any difference in good daylight at low ISO but if you turn up the ISO you do not want to take many pictures with the A7R. And I guess this has nothing to do with mirrorless or not, because it is said to be the same sensor used in both cameras. In this case Nikon has a much better control of the sensor than Sony and manages to get much better IQ at higher ISO than Sony with the same sensor. But I love my Sony A7R for how easy it is to use manual lenses with it with focus peaking and focus magnifier which is also the reason for me to choose A7R over Nikon 800 series camera. And if I continue comparing those cameras I would choose Nikon over Sony for viewfinder if I did not have to use the focus peaking. The only real advantage of the electronic viewfinder is the possibility to use to focus accurately with manual lenses. In all other terms the optical viewfinder is better. I would also choose Nikon over Sony for battery life, for flash, for reliability and some more things. On the other hand I would choose Sony for the compact size, adaptability to all kind of lenses, for the tilt screen and for street photography and some more things. Neither of those would be chosen for their fps rate. There you need cameras with smaller sensors to get good speed and there the mirrorless cameras have some advantages over dslr because you can shoot more fps, but you may have to guess where you are pointing the camera as you do not always have the possibility to follow your subject at high fps.

So what is better is mostly up to you and your needs, rather than the camera or camera system.
I would say I am a good judge of this matter. I h... (show quote)

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Apr 26, 2015 21:13:23   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
Bret wrote:
I don't know about "better"...but they are gaining ground very fast. A friend of mine put his D4s away for a Fugi...tiny leaf shutter you cant even hear and very nice IQ. If and when Nikon comes out with a FF mirrorless...I'll consider it for sure.
CIPA shipment data (Japanese manufacturers, so it excludes Samsung) show no appreciable change in mixture between SLR and MILC sales.



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Apr 26, 2015 21:18:45   #
joer Loc: Colorado/Illinois
 
BobT wrote:
I'm especially comparing them to entry level DSLRs. I'm reading statements like this of late. Some, like the recent NEX line state the Nex's have noticeably better IQ than DSLRs. So has the mirrorless surpassed it's main original benefit of just being smaller and lighter? Will pros or semi-pros be looking at these "smaller" cameras as their "main" cameras? All this has me thinking about replacing my DSLR gear with mirrorless.


I think mirror-less with electronic shutter has the potential of better image quality because there nothing to cause vibration.

I believe it will eventually dominate the high end camera designs.

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Apr 26, 2015 22:15:29   #
GregWCIL Loc: Illinois
 


According to the site you linked, the camera would not have an Electronic Viewfinder. I can't imagine that. So you would only have the little screen to look at on the back of the camera? Wouldn't that be going back several years and down to point and shoot technology?

I would hope instead, that they find a way to make the EVF work better at high frame rates. I predict there will be new technology in the next few years that will make mirrorless far superior to SLRs. Just think about it, a mechanical mirror slapping and vibrating is 50 year old technology. The future will be in electronic shutters and technology we haven't even thought about.

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Apr 26, 2015 23:58:32   #
BebuLamar
 
Bret wrote:
I don't know about "better"...but they are gaining ground very fast. A friend of mine put his D4s away for a Fugi...tiny leaf shutter you cant even hear and very nice IQ. If and when Nikon comes out with a FF mirrorless...I'll consider it for sure.


Does the Fuji have leaf shutter? I doubt that.

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Apr 27, 2015 01:21:30   #
asiafish Loc: Bakersfield, CA
 
Actually mirrorless goes back a lot longer than reflex does, like 1913 or thereabouts if you count the prototype (Ur Leica).

It was and remains a far more compact way to project an image onto a sensor.

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Apr 27, 2015 01:46:25   #
rbfanman
 
What you can get is not what most who get into mirrorless are getting. They tend to go for the smaller stuff, explaining their fadboy decision by saying they wanted smaller, and lighter weight, gear. Smaller sensors have smaller pixels, and provide less detail. No photographer can conquer basic physics, and make a small pixel provide big pixel detail.

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Apr 27, 2015 02:39:46   #
f8lee Loc: New Mexico
 
BebuLamar wrote:
Does the Fuji have leaf shutter? I doubt that.


No, the Fuji does not have a leaf shutter.

To answer the OP's question, the mirror less cameras (which, as mentioned already, come in a spectrum of qualities) are a different tool, and definitely have their uses.

IQ is based on the sensor as well as the lens; it is said the reason the Nikon D800 produces a better image than Sony's FF camera (which uses the same sensor, manufactured by Sony) is that Nikon's engineers do a better job of interpolating the raw data off the chip. The Fuji cameras (and some others) have DX sized chips, quite comparable in quality to those found in DSLRs.

As for the glass; as with DSLR lenses, there is a range of quality - but the best lenses are certainly on par with DSLR lenses - at least for real-world use (those who take photos of brick walls and resolution charts need not apply). Due to the shorter distance from sensor to lens in mirror less designs (in order to make room for the mirror box, DSLRs have about a 40MM minimum distance from the lens flange to the chip) some lenses are easier to design, notably wide-angle lenses with focal lengths shorter than 40MM. The Zeiss and Fuji glass out there is quite excellent, and the other major brands are no couches, either.

As a tool to take photos - which is more suitable depends on the kinds of shooting you do. The EVF's ability to display the scene more-or-less as it will record can be a huge benefit for landscape work, for instance. When I put my 9 stop ND filter on my DSLR, I can no longer see through the viewfinder at all (frankly, I can't see through the damn thing when I hold it up to my eye in broad daylight) yet on my Fuji X-T1 the scene is there, easy to frame - quite astonishing the first time I saw that! And if I dial in +2 stops of exposure, the EVF display mimics that as well. Of course, it can't "show me" the blur caused if I have a shutter speed of 45 seconds, but compared to the old way of "compose shot on tripod without ND filter, mount filter, take shot, remove filter, find new composition, replace filter," etc etc ad nauseum using the Fuji is a godsend.

On the other hand, the EVF's ever-so-slight delay and the camera's lesser ability to focus in low light push me to use the DSLR for event shooting, particularly indoors. And while this comment inevitably elicits all kinds of foot-stomping denials from some folks who declare there is no difference, I am not the only one who has made the observation.

That all said, alluding to the quote attributed to the news photographer Weegee decades ago - "F8 and be there" - the (much) smaller mirror less kit can mean the difference between taking the camera and not having it at all - a mirror less with a pancake lens takes an infinitely better image than a smart phone, after all.

So, in the end, and to answer your specific question - "no, not for every situation". But the answer is assuredly "yes" for some things...it really depends on your interests.

Of course, as technology inevitably improves, the EVF issues will fade away and the greater simplicity of manufacturing mirror less cameras as compared to the mechanically oriented DSLRs will put the latter out to pasture at some point.

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Apr 27, 2015 02:42:06   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
rbfanman wrote:
What you can get is not what most who get into mirrorless are getting. They tend to go for the smaller stuff, explaining their fadboy decision by saying they wanted smaller, and lighter weight, gear. Smaller sensors have smaller pixels, and provide less detail. No photographer can conquer basic physics, and make a small pixel provide big pixel detail.


What is smaller about a FF mirrorless sensor vs a DSLR's?

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Apr 27, 2015 05:41:41   #
coot Loc: Evansville, IN.
 
Diesel electric will never replace steam engines.

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