GrandmaG Loc: Flat Rock, MI

Ok, well I do know what jpeg & nef/raw files are. I have been shooting both since 2011. The reason I shoot both is so that I can share the jpegs with family. I make my edits on the raw files and save it with a different name to indicate which software I used for pp (ie: DSC_1234_pse13), usually as a PSD, and/or a jpeg. Then in 2012 I decided to make a "Best Pics" folder for each year and store in my Dropbox so that if the worst thing happened and I lost all my pictures, I would at least have my favorites. Plus I copy all the picture folders to 2 different external hard drives (one is plugged into the computer and the other is with me at all times). I put Picasa on my computer & that's when it hit me...I have 6+ copies of every picture on my drives. I set up Picasa to only scan one drive, and I deleted all the unadjusted jpegs for the past 4 years. I know I've made a lot of work for myself but I am paranoid that I will lose my pictures....

....Soooo for 2015, I decided that I would try to make this task a little simpler. I know that a lot of software will do the organizing for you, but probably not to the extent that I want, plus I don't use the same software for all my edits. Then I read that jpegs may not be that stable & the tif format is a better way to save your edited raw files.

So, here's my workflow in a somewhat simplified list:
I tried many other scenarios but this one seemed the simplest.
1) Upload the jpegs to my computer
2) Post them on my Wal-Mart page for sharing
3) Then delete them from the computer.
If I could upload them directly to Wal-Mart, it would save 2 steps.
4) Upload raw files to computer
5) Edit & save with pp initials after file name as tif
6) Copy favs into "Best" folder (saved as jpegs)
7) Copy Best folder to Dropbox
7) Send a backup copy to both external drives (eventually)

While I was doing all of this above, I noticed xmp files, that won't open with any program. After doing some research, I found out that these are metadata files created by Adobe.

I have 3 questions:
1. Does this xmp file open with it's corresponding picture in the Adobe software where the edits were made or is it a sidecar to the raw file?
2. I'm open for suggestions if anyone has a better plan or software that will do the job without having an ongoing fee attached.
3. Why are there so many extensions you can add to a file and why do we need so many?

jcboy3

I shoot RAW + JPG, but I usually just use the JPG files to quickly preview the images and make first cut to filter them down to a manageable level. This is because the RAW files take too much time to process for viewing. I then delete the corresponding RAW files (I have this automated, but it's easy to do manually). Then I process the RAW files (usually deleting a bunch more), and finally delete the JPG files entirely. At some point in the process, I rename the files with date, subject name/event name/location, and camera used. Usually when I have finished my third delete pass, because I don't want to leave clues about how many pictures I actually took. I then export select JPG files from processed RAW files, for uploading or delivery, and keep them for backup.

To answer your questions:

1. The xmp file contains all of the edit information for the file. It is an option to create it (otherwise, the edit information is preserved in the catalog file). I always generate xmp files so I am protected against catalog corruption (had too many experiences with that sort of thing). Means I can use a lean catalog for initial editing, and then easily import the files and edits into my main catalogs.

2. I have tried many programs; Lightroom has advanced to the point where I do most of my editing with it. The cost is minimal. I've spent decades upgrading Photoshop/Illustrator and other Adobe products, with the corresponding tax deductions because they are very expensive. To get Lightroom and Photoshop for $120/year is a real deal.

3. Each format gets it's own extension. There are many because there are many formats. Camera makers have their own proprietary formats (and extensions), other formats have been developed for lossless, compressed, graphic storage formats. You could do away with extensions; you would have to look in the file for metadata defining the format (it's actually there for most formats, just not easily seen). For me, extensions were one of the great inventions.

Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)

GG,

You are correct - you have a very convoluted workflow. If you are shooting raw - in Nikon it's an .nef file - you need not shoot an extra jpeg. Every nef file has a decent quality jpeg embedded in it. Free software like Instant Jpeg from Raw and Faststone Image Viewer will allow you to extract the jpegs from an entire folder in a few seconds. Faststone will also let you view the file without needing to convert.

As far has having 6 copies of every file and keeping them in sync - that is exactly why Lightroom is an excellent choice. That is exactly what it does. You only need one raw file and you create a working file for editing/finishing which is either a tif or psd file - period. There is no need to save jpegs. These are well suited for sharing and emailing, but not a great choice for editing.

Basically, I use Lightroom and Photoshop and my workflow looks like this:

1) Open LR, insert card into reader, import the files into the computer
2) View in LR, discard mistakes.
3) Open develop module - make global corrections to images - white and color balance, white and black points, highlights and shadows, some color adjustment, clarity, add a lens profile, remove chromatic aberrations, capture sharpen and slight denoising. Often, files can be 'batch edited" because they share similar characteristics and can receive the same adjustments. I make the changes to one, highlight all the similar files, and select the Synchronize tool. The edits are not "saved" with the original file, but they are saved in an xmp file (if you opt for this), or in a preview file, which is managed by LR.
4) If you feel you can improve on the image through more precise editing in a pixel editor, like Photoshop, then you use "edit in" to open a copy of the file in Photoshop. When you are done editing, closing the file in Photoshop will automatically add the multilayered working file to your LR catalog. The indutry "best practice" is to edit a 16 bit psd file (or tif) in the Prophoto color space (nice and large, no banding, no color channel clipping).
5) The edited working file is then used to generate any size jpg, with or without a watermark and you can even email directly from LR. I have a number of presets for a variety of purposes and destinations. Once the jpeg is delivered, I delete it. I never edit a jpeg.

On my computer I have one original file and one working copy. I back both of them up to an external drive ever night. If I used a second hard drive, my backup software can do that as well.

On to your 3 questions.

1)The xmp file contains edits to the raw file. If you choose to keep xmp files, they must always be moved with the raw files, otherwise you will not see the edits to the raw file. I just use the LR preview file to save my edits.

2) Ongoing "fee" is done away with if you just pay it annually. The point of LR/PS bundle is that you can have current software, that is updated and upgraded on a much more aggressive schedule, making it a better. What was happening was that Adobe found itself supporting a small cadre of users who insisted on using 10 yr old Photoshop - not a great business model for them, and in the long run for you. That is why the LR/PS bundle ends up being a bargain in the long run. Everyone wins. if you don't want the ongoing fee, pay it in one lump sum, just as you would if you purchased something in a box, which you would upgrade regularly and pay an upgrade charge. Trust me, it ends up being cheaper to use the subscription model. Photoshop was updated regularly enough, but upgrades were on an 18 month schedule. The purchase price of CS5 extended was $1000, and the upgrade to CS6 was $200. over a 3 year period you would likely have laid out $1400 for CS5, upgrade to CS6 and upgrade to the next version (ficticious ver 7). Over the same 3 year period, your out of pocket cost would be $360 at the end of year 3 - and that is just for Photoshop, and does not include Lightroom which would add another $300 - for a total of $1700. Now, in the time since CC was first introduced it has been upgraded (new version, not an update to a current version) 3 times in the past 20 months. Trust me, it is far cheaper and better with the subscription model.

3) jpeg is an 8 bit compressed file- no layers and it must be decompressed for viewing an editing and flattended and compressed for saving. It is a "lossy" compression so that after several generations of opening and saving the file you start to degrade the image. It's best use is for distribution - a fresh new clean unedited jpeg is actually pretty good. Nef is a Nikon raw file. Tif is a compressed or uncompressed 8 or 16 bit file that permits layering. Most use the 16 bit uncompressed version to do their Photoshop editing. There is relatively little that is lost in the editing process, certainly nothing noticeable. These are huge files, but the resulting flattened jpegs are very small. Xmp stores raw edits.

warrior Loc: Paso Robles CA

Wilkpedia

canon Lee

I will leave the technical explanations to others and just pipe in a small bit of info that might help. I save all of my RAW'S in LR catalogs, But when in Photoshop CS I save as a tiff before compressing to a JPEG. Why? because a TIFF file contains all of your layers and work you have done. It saves all of the data. I also save to an external drive as a TIFF. This way I can always go back and change my editing later. Hope this little tip helps.

Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

BobHartung Loc: Bettendorf, IA

The easiest first: XMP files are sidecar files that contain the information about any edits to RAW images. Every time you open these images the instructions are applied and the image rendered to the screen. Same when printing or exporting.

Your backup system seems convoluted. I import RAW files to LightRoom. While doing this I can rename if I want to and I do to represent which camera so the numbers don't lead to an import failure due to duplicate filenames (I carry two of the same model of camera).

I can process to my hearts content. I can organize with keywords, collections, etc.

I have only one copy of each RAW file on my computer. All are backed up to external drives.

When I print an image myself or export it to be printed, I add it to my "Printed" collection which are those that I feel are my best work. This rather small collection (relative to my entire archive) is burned to Blue-Ray or standard DVD (depending on size) and safely stored in my safe-deposit box with second copy to my brother. Do this twice annually.

I think you would find life a lot easier it you used only one storage / file management system. What to use is your choice.

The hard part is being organized enough and truthful enough with myself to go back and seriously delete those images that will never make it or for which there are two or three nearly identical images only one of which might every be pp.

My $0.02 HTh

GrandmaG Loc: Flat Rock, MI

Your workflow sounds similar to mine. Do you load the raw files directly into Lightroom from the card reader? Have you ever used Adobe Bridge? Is that better for organizing than Lightroom?

GrandmaG Loc: Flat Rock, MI

Ok, dumb question. If every raw file has a JPEG embedded in it, why does Nikon offer the choice to shoot raw + jpeg? I will try one of those free programs. I just use my jpegs for sharing through Walmart, then I delete them. In the past, I kept them all, but I have deleted all the jpegs that have a corresponding nef file.

I do have the Lightroom & Photoshop $10/mo subscriptio, so I will try your workflow. I also have PSE 13 & Nikon's Capture NX-2, & trial versions of ACDsee & Corel PaintShop. I'm trying multiple programs to decide on one to use. I've had Lightroom for 6 months & still haven't learned it. Is there a book you would recommend that would make learning Lightroom easier?

Uh- oh, i deleted some of those xmp files before i knew what they were. Does that mean, i will have to re-edit those photos?

Thank you for answering my questions. One more question. Is a psd file smaller than a tiff? I started saving my edited file as a tiff, & since they are large files, I hope my 1 TB drive doesn't fill up too fast.

minniev Loc: MIssissippi

There is no need for bridge if you use lightroom. LR is an excellent organizer.

Many people use LR to download their photos. I prefer to use my system tools to download into pre-prepared folders, then import into LR. There are often multiple ways to accomplish the same task, our preference.

zigipha Loc: north nj

Why are there so many photo standards (jpg,tiff, raw, nef, etc?)
here
http://xkcd.com/927

DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA

[quote=GrandmaG...While I was doing all of this above, I noticed xmp files, that won't open with any program. After doing some research, I found out that these are metadata files created by Adobe.

I have 3 questions:
1. Does this xmp file open with it's corresponding picture in the Adobe software where the edits were made or is it a sidecar to the raw file?
2. I'm open for suggestions if anyone has a better plan or software that will do the job without having an ongoing fee attached.
3. Why are there so many extensions you can add to a file and why do we need so many?[/quote]

(1) xmp files, as noted, are sidecar files that contain some, but not all, of the edit steps. They are actually text files and can be read with any text editor (but you have to tell your computer what program to open them with). The edits are also stored in the Lightroom catalog, so if you delete an xmp file accidentally you haven't lost your work. The xmp files are there so you can open the image in other editors and they can tell what you did in LR through the xmp file. That will only be useful if the other editor is compatible with Lightroom. In a text editor you can read them, but they're not really very interesting reading.

(3) The different extensions indicate that the files have different data in them. You already know about nef and jpg. A jpg is an image file that has been compressed. A tiff/tif file is an image file that is similar to a bitmap (bmp) but is either not compressed, or compressed using a lossless algorithm. Tiff files can contain layer information, but a jpg can't. Typically jpg files are small because they're highly compressed and tif files are fairly large, particularly if they contain layers.

(2) I don't know how you upload your jpgs to the Walmart sharing site. Can you do that from a remote disk? When you are downloading your jpgs to your computer, you have to attach the camera to your computer or insert the card into a card reader. Either way there's a pretty good chance that the card or camera will appear to your computer as a remote disk. When you start the transfer to Walmart you might be able to just navigate to the remote disk and transfer directly from there. That would combine the download and transfer tasks into one task. And you wouldn't have to delete the jpgs afterwards.

I have another step in my workflow: When I put my card in the reader I use a program called Downloader Pro. That shows me all the images on the card. I can select the ones appropriate to one subject and enter a text string that describes the subject. The program can then (a) change the file name so that it has a meaningful file name (b) download the files and place them in a folder /photos/[year]/[meaningful file name]/RAW/. That's another step in the workflow, but it does the file renaming and placement automatically. When I'm done with the postprocessing I save as a jpg and store the jpg in /photos/[year]/[meaningful file name]/. So the raw files are in a subfolder of the folder containing the jpgs. Changing the file names allows me to find things by file name outside of Lightroom (although LR allows more complex searches with keywords).

RicknJude Loc: Quebec, Canada

GrandmaG. How do you share a jpeg through Walmart?
I googled it. Now I know.

canon Lee

One simple reason you would want to shoot in RAW+JPEG is if you use a WiFi device to output to an I pad. JPEG output loads quicker and displays faster. The only time I can think of using JPEG alone is when shooting rapid frames at a sports shoot. This saves space on the card as well as uploading faster.

Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)

The embedded jpeg is usually a small, lower or medium quality jpeg. Not the same as what you get when you set the camera to produce large fine quality jpegs.

What part of LR are you getting stuck on? In my experience most people don't understand how a database driven catalog is different in use compared to a simple file browser. And the fact that you just can't "open a file in LR" as you would just about any program. The image editing, while powerful, is rudimentary and coarse, compared to the pixel level editing you can accomplish with Photoshop, Corel etc.

If you deleted an xmp file you have lost the edits to the raw file, so you'd have to recreate what you did.

Psd and tif files are similar in size - and both are huge compared to jpegs. gigabytes are cheap - just get bigger drive.