Question about RAW images in Adobe Elements RAW Editor (Page 2): Some googling suggests Canons do have an embedded jpeg! And, using certain Canon software allows you to use it. There...

bsprague Loc: Lacey, WA, USA

Some googling suggests Canons do have an embedded jpeg! And, using certain Canon software allows you to use it. There is always confusion somewhere in my life!

Delderby Loc: Derby UK

Nikonian72 wrote:

"Raw files contain the information required to produce a viewable image from the camera's sensor data." The raw information is there; it does NOT say that it contains a JPG image. P&S and some DSLR cameras need an internal processing program to produce a "reduced-size image in JPEG format" for the camera's LCD screen.

Delderby wrote:
Well - the following comes from the wikepedia article you quote above.
"Raw files contain the information required to produce a viewable image from the camera's sensor data. The structure of raw files often follows a common pattern: Optionally a reduced-size image in JPEG format"

Nikonian - I am now totally confused - what does this mean - which is a quote from that wikepedia article "The structure of raw files often follows a common pattern: Optionally a reduced-size image in JPEG format" - Is it that the RAW data can produce a JPG on demand, but that until it is requested it isn't there? If so, I don't see a logical difference between being there and not being there. I'm beginning to feel a bit like grasshopper.:-)

Nikonian72 Loc: Chico CA

Delderby wrote:

Is it that the RAW data can produce a JPG on demand, but that until it is requested it isn't there?

In order to produce a cooked meal, one needs a recipe (instructions) as well as the raw ingredients. In digital photography, the accompanying "recipe" (viewing instructions) is known as a "sidecar": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidecar_file "Many digital cameras allow to store both uncompressed raw data and a JFIF-encoded image file when shooting in "raw mode". This allows for faster previewing the photo, and support by applications that do not support the (often undocumented) raw format."

threedeers Loc: Northern Illinois

Ok, Then what am I looking at when I view a RAW file in Elements editor? Is it an embedded JPEG file or does Elements look at the RAW data and produce a viewable image?

wisner Loc: The planet Twylo

Nikonian72 wrote:

"Raw files contain the information required to produce a viewable image from the camera's sensor data." The raw information is there; it does NOT say that it contains a JPG image. P&S and some DSLR cameras need an internal processing program to produce a "reduced-size image in JPEG format" for the camera's LCD screen.

Correct, any camera that you have set to record in RAW produces a JPEG that you view on the rear screen. Try this: set your camera .to record in RAW+ JPEG, then bring them into whatever software you use and compare them. The JPEG will often look 'better' to most people because of the way the camera's software processes the RAW settings.

Delderby Loc: Derby UK

Nikonian72 wrote:

In order to produce a cooked meal, one needs a rec... (show quote)

Thank you for your time and effort in putting forward your point of view. I still believe that information I have previously assimilated - that a RAW file produces a JPG in order to be viewed - is (logically) correct, and that that JPG is not the JPG that has been separately produced as a finished picture (for printing, or editing, or viewing or storing) :)

Searcher Loc: Kent, England

Raw files DO contain an embedded jpg. Some raw files contain three embedded jpgs in different sizes. The Codec that a user installs on his computer to view raw files in Explorer is a software device to extract the jpg from the raw file. Lightroom uses the extracted jpg files for its library previews as do many other image viewers.

Read this article which explains what the jpg is for:

http://www.bythom.com/qadraw.htm

There is a tiny program you can download called "ExtractJPEG.exe" which will extract the jpegs from NEF files.

There was a heated discussion on this subject a few weeks ago, but I can't find it now.

bsprague Loc: Lacey, WA, USA

Hate it when I'm flat wrong! Now I have to recover. :oops:

Searcher Loc: Kent, England

bsprague wrote:

Hate it when I'm flat wrong! Now I have to recover. :oops:

You can recover quickly, you are not very wrong.
Shoot a raw file
View it on the camera LCD. you see the jpeg with all camera settings applied.
If you are shooting Raw + Jpeg, a copy of that jpg is made at some stage and sent to the memory card together with the raw file (which contains either 1,2 or 3 jpgs).

View the raw file in LR, you are seeing the a copy of the embedded jpg WITH SOME ADOBE PRESETS APPLIED.

I have not found out what is applied, nor how to turn them off. I read this on one of the Adobe forums, but cannot find the conversation.

When you open the raw file in the Develop section, I think a new view is generated from the raw file, your edits are recorded and a new preview image is created, the old one being discarded. The embedded jpg remains unaltered and still embedded, which is why if the raw file is opened in another program it appears as the original unmodified image unless the new program is able to read the xmp files generated by LR.

What I find amazing is the speed of all these operations.

Searcher Loc: Kent, England

Here is a link to a website with a free jpeg extraction program that works on any raw file and (almost) any operating system.

http://michaeltapesdesign.com/instant-jpeg-from-raw.html

bsprague Loc: Lacey, WA, USA

Searcher wrote:

Here is a link to a website with a free jpeg extraction program that works on any raw file and (almost) any operating system.

http://michaeltapesdesign.com/instant-jpeg-from-raw.html

I get nervous getting software off the net, but I bit and tried it. Wow! You right click a RAW file and out pops the JPEG!

Delderby Loc: Derby UK

wisner wrote:

Correct, any camera that you have set to record in RAW produces a JPEG that you view on the rear screen. Try this: set your camera .to record in RAW+ JPEG, then bring them into whatever software you use and compare them. The JPEG will often look 'better' to most people because of the way the camera's software processes the RAW settings.

It's the other way round. The JPG looks better because it is the finished pic (which,of course can be further edited). The RAW view has, in effect, not been touched by the camera, (but might have been auto adjusted to some extent by the editing prog - e.g . Adobe)

zigipha Loc: north nj

Delderby wrote:

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I understood that you never see a RAW file - because it cannot be viewed - what you see is an embedded JPG - which is how the RAW displays itself for info. It is not the same JPG that gets downloaded as a JPG file - it is only there to visually identify the downloaded RAW.

Incorrect; in strict sense both raw and jpgs are files, and the sw interprets the data to figure out how light the display you are looking at. When you view in lr or acr, you are seeing the image from the raw data. if you are looking at the raw with like irfanview, it is using the embedded jpg.

Another setting that gets carried over to raw is WB, and LR will set the WB to what was set in the camera.

zigipha Loc: north nj

Nikonian72 wrote:

Unfortunately, this is a misconception about raw files. "Raw" literally means not-yet-processed or not-yet-cooked, like raw eggs or raw meat. A JPEG image results from processing a raw file. It is not logical to have a processed image "embedded" in a raw file.

You will find no mention of "imbedded JPG" here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format

Yes it does - for sw that can't figure out the raw but can find the jpg and and show that.

search for other threads in uhh that has beaten this to death.

lsimpkins Loc: SE Pennsylvania

Searcher wrote:

View the raw file in LR, you are seeing the a copy of the embedded jpg WITH SOME ADOBE PRESETS APPLIED.

I have not found out what is applied, nor how to turn them off. I read this on one of the Adobe forums, but cannot find the conversation.

Searcher, I believe that the Adobe applied settings in the Library are the same as those in the Develop Module under Camera Calibration/Profile "Adobe Standard". At least for my Pentax, there are other Profiles to choose from, including "Embedded" which is Adobe's implementation of the in-camera JPEG settings. Like you, though, I don't know if (how) they can be changed in the Library Module unless through the Import process.