acellis Loc: Charleston, SC

Hi all!
My question is when you select photos for artistic development do you release both the color and B&W of the same photo? I like them both and the both are sturdy photos. I am questioning whether to package both the color and B&W... Your thoughts?

CaptainC Loc: Colorado, south of Denver

What does "release" mean? Are you asking whether to show both to a client?

Sometimes I will show both, but most often, the B&W is the only version of that image I show.

acellis Loc: Charleston, SC

Thank you CaptainC. That is exactly what I meant.

CaptainC Loc: Colorado, south of Denver

If you are selling images, one of the worst things you can do is give the potential buyer any reason to have to make comparisons. Most will just get paralyzed with indecision.

acellis Loc: Charleston, SC

So true. The other HUGE mistake was to mention the total images I took at the session. They wouldn't pay until they saw all the images. I have never delivered anything to them. I am learning slowly but surely.

CaptainC Loc: Colorado, south of Denver

AH- you need to set expectations. I tell them upfront that they will only see the ones I select after culling the blinks, bad hair, my mistakes, or images I just don't like. That is the way it is and not negotiable. I also only show around 30-40 and even 40 is unusual. They know that upfront and in my years of doing this, not one person has asked to see more than what I show them.

I have had a few ask what happened to a certain image they remember me taking, but I just tell them, "Oh that one? - my fault, it sucked." They are good with that.

Under no circumstances do you allow the client to control the sales session.

DavidPine Loc: Fredericksburg, TX

I flew with an aircraft commander in Vietnam that was pragmatic similar to you. I always understood what was expected of me and I never had a bad mission with him. He wasn't easy going and I had tremendous respect and faith in him. I get reminded of him whenever you respond to someone.

CaptainC Loc: Colorado, south of Denver

Roger. Out. :-)

Bobby Deal Loc: Loveland Colorado

My contract is quite clear, you pay in full for the sitting fee before I leave the shoot or you never see anything. You also pay any fees for prints or other work before anything is ordered and all monies due are paid in full before you ever receive ANYTHING TANGIBLE EVER!

CaptainC Loc: Colorado, south of Denver

Yep - I operate the same way.

hlmichel Loc: New Hope, Minnesota

How many images do you give to clients?

I've had a few friends of my in-laws inquire about paying me for family shoots.
When asked, I gave a pretty low fee, but for only 5 digital images--printing costs additional.

CaptainC Loc: Colorado, south of Denver

Well...I don't "give" them any. :-)

I show 25-40 for a senior session and probably 15-25 for a family session. Digital images are priced exactly the same as an 11x14. and they have to purchase four. Why should it be less?

A digital file takes exactly the same amout of work on my/your part as the print. At least it should.

bkyser Loc: Fly over country in Indiana

I'd like to add something to that (that took me TOO LONG to learn) The digital images should cost MORE if anything, than the prints. The digital images represent lost sales. I'm not done with everything yet, but our pricing structure is changing soon.

yes, they always have, and will still have to pay for a deposit to hold the date, they have to pay the balance for the sitting or event 2 weeks before the event, or at least by the day of the sitting, and all prints are paid for before I send in the order to get them printed.

What we currently do, basically because technology doesn't allow me to stop people from scanning, is give a digital copy of any image paid for, but only a large enough file that it will look good on screen for facebook, or maybe printed at 4x6.

If they want "all" it is like purchasing proofs in the "good old days" and they have to pay. (we will still sell the digital images, but they will be paying a decent price for it.... I REALLY like Cliff's idea of charging the 11x14 price, and minimum of 4) I may have to "borrow that" idea Cliff. Hope you don't mind. What I'm thinking is that if they want the digital image, they will pay the 11x14 price, even if they just want an 8x10...

Man, I love this site!

Bobby Deal Loc: Loveland Colorado

This could be one of the most important threads of the year.

What follows is not intended to be derogatory or attacking nor is it pointed at any individual. It is simply a few points on the logic of business.
Far too many people today jump up and call themselves a business long before they are ready. The digital age has lowered the bar to one of choice, there is no credibility check today to regulate entry into business. As a result many start competing in a market place they have no understanding of which leads to pricing structures with no business logic behind them.

Business is something that either is a business or it is not. If one is truly a business then they have taken specific set of steps to legitimize themselves as a business. These include having a businessmen license, business bank account, liability insurance, a address for your place of business, a marketing plan to compete at a professional level within the market place (one that is not based on being the cheapest in town)

A solid pricing structure puts prices in a competitive balance with the market in which we compete. Giving away the farm just to get the job is damaging to the industry as a whole and while it may seem beneficial to the newbie in the business today, 10 years down the road that newbie is going to be an established pro and they are still going to be struggling to compete at price points they helped established when they entered the market as the local low ball.

Pricing needs to be based on research of your market and it needs to have sound business logic behind it.

For example - turn and burn aka giving the while shoot on a disc is not sound business logic. Pricing in most professional businesses is based on a sitting fee and then additional markup on a per image delivered basis.

So say a family session may have a sitting fee of $250 on average in your market. Then the client needs to purchase a minimum of say 4 images in 11x17 sizes. The price for those images is the same be it digital or a print. If they buy a print from me they get a web res copy for Facebook / flicker etc but they have no rights to print that file. If they want additional prints of any image they have to come back to me.

I do offer digital sitting packages that include a set of digital images with them for social media but all they get are images at 80-0 pixels @ 72 dpi and they are watermarked. Lager versions can be purchased at print prices even if they only want the digital version,. As mentioned earlier I have just as much work in the digital copy as I do the print copy.

If they want the print resolution digital file they pay 10x the price of the 11x17 because once they have the print file all future sales are lost.

This is not a turn and burn business and the facebook professionals that are operating their business this way will look back in a few years and understand why those of us who have come before them have worked so hard to try and make them see the short comings of the Turn and Burn Business model.

acellis Loc: Charleston, SC

Bobby Deal. I agree with the premise of your comment about pricing. It does have to be thought out if it is your full time profession or you will go broke. People want the T&B treatment I say go for it. Chances are those customers would never seek us out because they don't want to pay that amount for fine artistry. They aren't going to print them anyway. Here's an idea for ya- sell High Definition screen saver images of your session. I do. Big hit. It's a little time consuming because I use photoshop elements and can't save the actions but it is doable but I charge for that. Just a thought