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Metering + Manual Vs "P"
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May 4, 2013 13:15:34   #
potmead Loc: 191miles North of London, England
 
When i started taking photographs in the early 1970's TTL metering was the latest and greatest innovation, however over the years even with the advent of multi pattern metering etc. the meters can still be 'fooled' but not very often.
If you understand how the meter works, then you can use it to your advantage. Nowadays i mostly shoot in'P' mode because 1, it gives me good result 90% of the time, especially if i need to shoot something quickly, 2,I have the facility to use Program shift if i need to use a different shutter speed/aperture from the one the camera selects. 3, i have the option to lock the exposure if i think the meter is being Fooled. So 99.9% of the time there is no need for 'M A or S' modes or an external meter.

PS
Omega navigator uses VLF Very Low Frequency as it was originally used by the US submarine fleet, VLF is better at penetrating the water.

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May 4, 2013 13:17:46   #
marki3rd Loc: Columbus, Indiana
 
Wow! My head hurts. I'll just make a few (not comprehensive) points.

Digital photography with auto exposure via in camera metering is a giant leap forward and getting virtual instant results without messing with extra external equipment such as a light meter, umbrellas, reflectors, light boxes, and other diffuser systems, and not having to deal with the vagaries of chemical processing is really cool. However, using these tools when appropriate, can make great artistic improvements, and I am not just talking "in studio". Consider these brief points........

The in camera metering system can only read reflected light and light coming at the camera from other sources. There are situations where the camera metering can not adequately cope. Many cameras have methods to try to compensate

A light meter can take incident readings, including readings from multiple sources. For flash exposures, the camera can only "compute" the exposure based on the known power of the given flash source, and can not always incorporate "inverse square law" adequately. An external meter can be pointed at a flash from the subjects position and the flash "test" fired to obtain a reading of the light actually hitting the subject. This method can be used to read multiple light sources and calculate the overall combined effect with great precision.

Incidentally, there was always a third variable in film photography besides shutter and aperture outside of controlling the light. It was called pushing and pulling.

I certainly don't suggest that it is necessary or ever desirable to lug a meter or other accessories with you everywhere you go, but these devises can be "useful" on some photo shoots and to say that an automatic camera covers all the bases is neglecting that cameras inherent weaknesses, few as they are.

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May 4, 2013 13:24:48   #
OddJobber Loc: Portland, OR
 
marki3rd wrote:
Wow! My head hurts. I'll just make a few (not comprehensive) points.

Hey, Marki, you're pretty smart for a newbie. Welcome to the Forum!

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May 4, 2013 13:54:29   #
marki3rd Loc: Columbus, Indiana
 
OddJobber wrote:
Hey, Marki, you're pretty smart for a newbie. Welcome to the Forum!


Thanks OddJobber. I glad to be here, both for the entertainment and the learning experience.

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May 4, 2013 15:35:03   #
marki3rd Loc: Columbus, Indiana
 
In my earlier post to this thread I got sidetracked in my thought processes and forgot one of the points I intended to make. Namely, using P mode exclusively and ignoring Av (A )and Tv (T) and M modes. When using the "priority" and "manual" modes, you can still use the cameras metering to determine the correct exposure, but you can control the parameters to achieve some desired effect such as DOF, freezing motion or intentionally allowing the effects of movement to show, for instance. There are many more situational reasons. In the end, if shooting in P mode satisfies all your shooting criteria and floats your boat, that is fine. Just be aware that "there is more than one way to skin a cat".

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May 4, 2013 16:26:57   #
dpullum Loc: Tampa Florida
 
Shall I confess now that when shooting a wedding dinner I set manually to about 12-15' and then the flash and ambient light commands what f stop, speed is set at perhaps 1/125 (minimizes effect of ambient ). This way the DOF gives good in-focus range. Gives good quality and lets you cover a lot of tables and little groups fast and sure.** Yep, my automated marvel becomes a fixed box camera. However in all but that type of situation I take full advantage of those guys back in Japan who anticipate and practice and program situation photography and also practice situation ethics.

** Missed a good shot with auto-focus shot a couple and the camera focused on trees a mile away.. between them, OUCH, my fault... if had used my 15' box camera @ f=8 1/125 the shot would have been great. I can estimate 15 ' easily or I can use my $12 sonic distance meter click answer, back up one step. Use the KISS principle when possible. Yep Sarge you do not stand up in a V-Nam battle and adjust settings!!!

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May 4, 2013 16:46:18   #
rook2c4 Loc: Philadelphia, PA USA
 
winterrose wrote:
The point or question that I pose is, how, in all practicality, is there any advantage in setting ISO on a meter, selecting Aperture or Shutter speed as the priority setting, reading the appropriate metered F stop or speed and shooting the scene with those settings set manually OR simply setting ISO and "A" or "S" and having the camera instantly compute and set the remaining parameter?


If you're doing something like street photography, where you may have but 3 seconds to aim the camera, establish focus and press the shutter to capture an important, fleeting action moment, the semi-manual modes help tremendously. If you're in M mode, it may be too late by the time you've dialed in for proper exposure. And if you're fumbling around with an external light meter on top of that, forget it... you've lost the shot!

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May 5, 2013 19:58:18   #
Ralloh Loc: Ohio
 
winterrose wrote:
There is a lot of reference to the use of light meters in evaluating lighting conditions to facilitate shooting in Manual Mode.
In the olden days, once the film was loaded, for any given lighting condition there were only two adjustments available. Shutter speed and Aperture. Of those two, for any given subject there is usually one which is of priority and as camera manufacturers introduced "automatic" mode they provided the user the ability to manually set one and let the metering system set the other.
Also in the olden days, there was no way to view the result of the selected exposure settings until the entire film developing process had been completed.
The many references to light meters and manual exposure would have us believe that there is something almost magical to be gained by this methodology under all conditions.
Digital cameras provide say 12 f stops of latitude, to use a term from those film days, and our aim is to place those 12 stops nicely within the range to best capture the luminance range of reflected light from the given subject. But what if it is beyond the capability of the camera? In that case we would be forced to accept a loss of detail in either the shadows or the highlights. Or both. There is one other variable over which we have control, you might say. True, we could provide more or less light as necessary but that is not really practical under many or most normal situations.
Shooting in a studio is of course a whole different set of circumstances but I am not talking about shooting under tightly controlled lighting conditions.
The point or question that I pose is, how, in all practicality, is there any advantage in setting ISO on a meter, selecting Aperture or Shutter speed as the priority setting, reading the appropriate metered F stop or speed and shooting the scene with those settings set manually OR simply setting ISO and "A" or "S" and having the camera instantly compute and set the remaining parameter?
Or better still, just setting "P" and monitoring the result.
Mr. Rockwell was unfairly lambasted for referring to "P" as "professional mode".
I agree with him if it was his little dig, which, to his amusement, so many bit, at all those people who think they can do better, or rather, be seen to be doing better and being a better photographer by not needing to rely on such amateurish stuff as anything automatic.
In truth, "P" is referred to as Program Auto which takes into account, and I can only speak of Nikon here, a whole lot more than some may have us believe.
The metering system in a modern Nikon is profoundly more sophisticated than the everything averaged down to 18% gray "dumb" light meter portrayed by some.
There are a great number of controls and combinations of controls available, and there are many which most people will never use.
The Nikon D3 was designed for professional use and it incorporated only those features required by a professional in order to get the "money shot". I refer, of course, to the type of subject affording little time and no second chance to get the shot. "Mr President, would you mind falling over again, I need a meter reading..." There are no bells or whistles. It is ready long before you are and it will always get the shot if used correctly. It is very rare indeed that setting "P" and releasing the shutter fails.
I am in no way saying that using external light metering and making careful accommodation of all things considered etc. etc. has no place but I fail to see the advantage in real terms of making photography more complex an activity than is necessary, especially if shooting manually is dressed up as being some sort of elite club to be revered by we lesser beings who happen to have a lean towards the practical use of technology.
Light meters and shooting manually does not magically expand the performance of your camera. All it can ever do is allow the photographer to stand up and take "credit" for some of the numbers on his photo's exif data.
As I said, shooting in a studio and all the control over lighting that affords is a different thing altogether but I am not referring to that.
Over to you….Rob.
There is a lot of reference to the use of light me... (show quote)


whaa..huh...huh...Oh sorry, I fell asleep.

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May 5, 2013 21:16:55   #
winterrose Loc: Kyneton, Victoria, Australia
 
Ralloh wrote:
whaa..huh...huh...Oh sorry, I fell asleep.


You really ARE an idiot, Ralloh....I can't help it if you have the attention span of a peanut....Why do you even bother to waste anyone's time, (including your own, for what that is worth, apparently...) posting your dribble. But then the quality of your reply obviously reflects the quality of your intellect. I hope you don't waste the rest of your day as well. Rob.

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May 5, 2013 21:22:55   #
Ralloh Loc: Ohio
 
winterrose wrote:
You really ARE an idiot, Ralloh....I can't help it if you have the attention span of a peanut....Why do you even bother to waste anyone's time, (including your own, for what that is worth, apparently...) posting your dribble. But then the quality of your reply obviously reflects the quality of your intellect. I hope you don't waste the rest of your day as well. Rob.


Oh bug off you snooty creep. If you can't take a joke, then how about you leaving. Good grief.

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May 5, 2013 21:30:52   #
BHC Loc: Strawberry Valley, JF, USA
 
winterrose wrote:
You really ARE an idiot, Ralloh....I can't help it if you have the attention span of a peanut....Why do you even bother to waste anyone's time, (including your own, for what that is worth, apparently...) posting your dribble. But then the quality of your reply obviously reflects the quality of your intellect. I hope you don't waste the rest of your day as well. Rob.

Now, Rob, play nice. After all, he did quote your whole post in his reply. Maybe that's what wore him out. Maybe it was his idea of a joke. You can't be expected, living where you do, to appreciate the dry (parched?) sense of humor from the midst of an exciting place like Iowa. Now be a good fellow and go pop yourself a cool one.

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May 5, 2013 21:46:23   #
winterrose Loc: Kyneton, Victoria, Australia
 
Mogul wrote:
Now, Rob, play nice. After all, he did quote your whole post in his reply. Maybe that's what wore him out. Maybe it was his idea of a joke. You can't be expected, living where you do, to appreciate the dry (parched?) sense of humor from the midst of an exciting place like Iowa. Now be a good fellow and go pop yourself a cool one.


You're right again, Mogul, thinking about it, if I said "hello, how are you Ralloh" he would probably have fallen asleep before he heard me say his name! I will have that beer now, it's been an exciting morning, being called "snooty" and "creep" all in the same sentence. Cheers mate, Rob.

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May 5, 2013 21:54:33   #
Ralloh Loc: Ohio
 
kc0fgp wrote:
VLF Omega was one of the early global navigation systems. Not real user friendly. VLF stands for Very Low Frequency — the operating frequencies were well below the broadcast band. :wink:


Aw yes. I used to use it all the time flying around Southern California.

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May 5, 2013 22:13:29   #
Michael O' Loc: Midwest right now
 
Mogul wrote:
Good grief, Rob. Are you trying to set a page record all by yourself? I've never seen one of your posts that long, and I have seen very few when you didn't skewer someone. Are you losing your touch or are you getting old? We're going to have to hurry to get that beer before one of us kicks the bucket because of old age.

Seriously though (as serious as we can get), I like my toys, especially my light meter and color temperature meter. The Sekonic doesn't tell me what I can do; it merely suggests what I shouldn't try to go. And my Sixti-color keeps me from coming up with pink locomotives and purple cabooses under all the crazy lighting in the museum. I still don't trust "automatic white balance" and a lot of other bells and whistles (not to mention toot, whistle, plunk and boom). Tell me, compadre, am I just getting to old for this stuff. Best regards. Bill
Good grief, Rob. Are you trying to set a page rec... (show quote)


Well pro and an taganists, there is one key difference between the preprogrammed projections from DSLRs from their readings of REFLECTED light, and that is that the old Norwood Director of the early 50s and its successor, Seconic, is that their "ping pong balls" read the actual INCIDENT light, allowing the thinking photographer to make better educated guesses and compensations than when based upon reflected light, which is different than the actual light falling upon the subject. Thus if its a critical shot or series, I'll pull out the Seconic and read the actual light. Makes a difference -- small possibly, but a difference. Better to work from a known -- a real, exact, direct, and absolutely identified purely-measured quantity.

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May 5, 2013 23:41:48   #
BHC Loc: Strawberry Valley, JF, USA
 
Ralloh wrote:
Aw yes. I used to use it all the time flying around Southern California.

Ralloh, a question for clarification. Considering its inherent inaccuracy (±2-4 miles), wasn't the use of Omega somewhat hazardous in the high traffic areas af Southern California? How did you cope with conflicting reports? Did you use it as an aid in VFR or did you have to depend on it for IFR? Thanks?

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