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Bad News For Boeing Aircraft
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Mar 23, 2019 12:31:07   #
ntonkin Loc: western Upper Peninusla of Michigan
 
I always assume comments like this are either incompetence, ignorance or arrogance. It is amusing when right-wing-nuts badmouth public servants as being incompetent. This isn't about who understands the most about Boeing aircraft, it's about motivations. The motivations of the FAA and NTSB is the safety of the American public; the motivation of Boeing is PROFIT. This profit bias, whether conscious or unconscious, affects every decision Boeing engineers make. They gambled with shortcuts on this MCAS system in order to make bigger profits and because of people like you, who relinquished Federal regulation responsibilities to Boeing, 336 people have been killed. This hasn't just cost Boeing a bundle, it has very clearly cost our country a significant chunk of whatever remains of our world leadership status. Now even our allies don't trust us to regulate safety requirements on aircraft. How many lives do you think is reasonable for the aircraft industry to sacrifice on the alter of "maximum profit" before the market forces a correction. I guess 336 is a pretty good guess, right?

Maybe now federal regulators will require any safety feature be standard equipment and not optional... ant-lock brakes on automobiles are still not federally required safety features.

This whole 737 MAX issue foreshadows far bigger issues that our country and society must address at some point in this second "Gilded age" which we are currently well into.

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Mar 23, 2019 12:31:54   #
phlash46 Loc: Westchester County, New York
 
fourlocks wrote:
Amen to that! It turns out the FAA allowed Boeing to conduct it's own quality control tests and Boeing's results were used for aircraft certification. I don't know who's worse at not doing their job, FAA or FDA. Either way, people die because our politicians need to "free companies from the burdensome shackles of regulations." Yeah right; just look at the banking industry to see how well business "self-regulation" works.


as as retired and embarrassed banker...

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Mar 23, 2019 12:47:51   #
mas24 Loc: Southern CA
 
buckbrush wrote:
The real world is that the Boeings and other industries are not accountable industries. They are made up of individuals. Those individuals are the ones that have made errors in the certification of the Max aircraft.
Of course the Northwest region of FAA is just as bad by employing those same individuals who used to work at Boeing as quality persons. Ask me how I know!

As a lifelong quality person in the aerospace industry and as one who was fired by 'upper management' in a large helicopter company when I threatened to go to the FAA about a safety issue which eventually caused two pilots to lose their lives, the reality is most people are not able to stand up to managements desire to kick an aircraft out the door. When I went to the FAA they didn't pursue an investigation as it was not something their own employees had uncovered so they weren't going to take a stand about Quality or the lack thereof at one of the companies they had approved to operate.

In the Max case, an individual at Boeing probably said "this is similar to the previous models we make, let's get it into the hands of the operators as quickly as we can".

Somewhere within Boeing an individual, not a corporation, dropped the ball by not making sure the new system was documented in the flight manuals. Then a person in the FAA certification office did not require a triple redundant sensor for this new system. The FAA just said OK. I suspect that during the 'official flight testing by FAA pilots' there was likely no disagreement between the two sensors so the system as designed did not require an aggressive action by the pilots to counteract the system pushing the nose down.

The FAA was likely being pushed by Boeing to approve the flight manuals. One person at Boeing did not have the wherewithal to stand up and say the flight manual is deficient!
These tragedies are most likely the result of a poor system design by a person at Boeing. Also someone at the FAA just kicked the can down the road by not included the system explanation in the flight manuals. A lack of training on the system by the airlines is a secondary cause.
The real world is that the Boeings and other indus... (show quote)


That's an interesting story you just told. Negligence happens regularly in manufacturing. One auto maker had problems with a stuck accelerator that killed some drivers. They got sued and paid millions of dollars in wrongful death settlements. You know about the Takata Auto Air Bag scandal, don't you? The difference between the auto and aviation safety, is that the auto safety negligence, does not result in 346 fatalities in 5 months. This can't happen every 5 months. Regardless of pilot error, or a problem with the aircraft. Boeing says now ,they will insert this safety measure as standard, in all of their 737 Max 8 Aircrafts. I'm wondering just how much extra, in dollars, would each plane have cost, to have had that safety measure installed?

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Mar 23, 2019 12:53:57   #
ntonkin Loc: western Upper Peninusla of Michigan
 
one thing for sure, it will cost significantly less per plane if it is standard equipment than what it would as an option.

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Mar 23, 2019 13:06:15   #
One Rude Dawg Loc: Athol, ID
 
DonB wrote:
Hey Folks, What ever happened to pilot training? Being certified on xxx aircraft? two hundred hours in type for a copilot? ?
I agree, those attitude indicators are something new, but turn off the autopilot when it starts going crazy!
Yes, in today's' world Boeing will take a hit, however, look at all the safety gizmos that you can option on your new car. Did you option them or did you just settle for a "Plain Jane" car? Why didn't you get them, too much money for them?


Airlines fault for being cheap and not training their pilots on this model, pilot error.

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Mar 23, 2019 13:09:08   #
One Rude Dawg Loc: Athol, ID
 
Architect1776 wrote:
The planes did not have the software installed as most pilots were properly trained.
Only lazy pilots and poor quality airlines who failed to do proper training had the problem.
The software "Fix" is to address airline training failures and poor pilot training regarding the specific plane.
Just watched an "Air Diasters" show where an Air Bus went down for a similar poor training third world airline. Pilots had an issue that good pilots train for regarding the Airbus software. These pilot did not train and total time in type was like 2 hours between the pilots.
So why are you not bashing Airbus? Politics?
The planes did not have the software installed as ... (show quote)


Right on, fly 3rd world airlines at your own risk.

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Mar 23, 2019 13:27:16   #
Fotoartist Loc: Detroit, Michigan
 
traderjohn wrote:
Right he is always on a rant about politicians and real or imaged corruption.


I'm not saying the market shouldn't be regulated. It should. This plane passed All FAA regulations including all the latest regarding its new technology. What's your solution to a product that fails after going thru that?

Nothing can bring back the lives lost. All I'm saying is, the market will extract punishment from them perhaps putting them out of business. Don't you think that's some incentive for them to police themselves too?

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Mar 23, 2019 13:28:28   #
phlash46 Loc: Westchester County, New York
 
Fotoartist wrote:
I'm not saying the market shouldn't be regulated. It should. This plane passed All FAA regulations including all the latest regarding its new technology. What's your solution to a product that fails after going thru that?

Nothing can bring back the lives lost. All I'm saying is, the market will extract punishment from them perhaps putting them out of business.


It passed all FAA regs because Boeing said it did; that's the problem.

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Mar 23, 2019 13:29:50   #
Amielee Loc: Eastern Washington State
 
Years ago the U.S. had two agencies involved with aviation. The CAB was charged with promoting aviation and regulating routes. The CAA was charged with policing and licensing aviation. Both agencies were combined into the FAA who is charged with both activities. There is a conflict of interest in promoting and policing any activity. That may be some of the problems with the FAA's performance. The comments about pilot training and manufacturing interests also are valid and play a roll in accident prevention, especially in this case. 56 hours of training on an I-Pad hardly seems adequate and 200 hours of flight training for a second officer in a modern jet aircraft seems almost criminal. In 1938 in a DC-3 a minimum of 250 hours and a commercial license was required for a second officer. Keep it up Boeing and the old saying "If it ain't Boeing I ain't going" is going to be changed by moving the ain't.

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Mar 23, 2019 13:31:06   #
Fotoartist Loc: Detroit, Michigan
 
phlash46 wrote:
It passed all FAA regs because Boeing said it did; that's the problem.


Which regulation did they lie about complying with? Thou shall not ever crash?

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Mar 23, 2019 13:34:35   #
Fotoartist Loc: Detroit, Michigan
 
Amielee wrote:
Years ago the U.S. had two agencies involved with aviation. The CAB was charged with promoting aviation and regulating routes. The CAA was charged with policing and licensing aviation. Both agencies were combined into the FAA who is charged with both activities. There is a conflict of interest in promoting and policing any activity. That may be some of the problems with the FAA's performance. The comments about pilot training and manufacturing interests also are valid and play a roll in accident prevention, especially in this case. 56 hours of training on an I-Pad hardly seems adequate and 200 hours of flight training for a second officer in a modern jet aircraft seems almost criminal. In 1938 in a DC-3 a minimum of 250 hours and a commercial license was required for a second officer. Keep it up Boeing and the old saying "If it ain't Boeing I ain't going" is going to be changed by moving the ain't.
Years ago the U.S. had two agencies involved with ... (show quote)


You made my point about the marketplace. There won't be a Boeing if the public says so.

Boeing wasn't responsible for some other countries regulations about pilot training hours, were they?

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Mar 23, 2019 13:53:11   #
Rich Maher Loc: Sonoma County, CA
 
Turns out Boeing is just another slime ball company.

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Mar 23, 2019 13:53:18   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
Bmarsh wrote:
Actually, if they had turned ON the autopilot, it would have turned OFF the MCAS, the feature that caused the down trim. Seems American pilots are trained to use more of the automation than foreign pilots which is why US airlines haven’t seen the problem.


Exactly.
Training as I have stated here over and over.

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Mar 23, 2019 13:55:29   #
bodiebill
 
Like other commercial products that require government involvement it requires cooperation and good relations between the company and government.
Both have weaknesses. The government being too bureaucratic with no personal liability when things go wrong, and business too focused on cost reduction for maximum profit.
I worked for the world's largest drilling rig manufacturer. Our product always had the industry highest safety factor, reliability and performance, along the highest market price. We were the leader in the field because of safety and performance. Reliability has an intrinsic value. We took no shortcuts when quality was concerned. Quality product, reliability and performance in the long run was was the winning feature for our customer--not the lowest price.
Complexity often is a problem.
We once interfaced with the Department of Energy concerning safety features of the drilling rig. The government expert was a fraud and dud, who had little to none experience in the industry. Those exposures make one very skeptical about " we are from the government and here to help you."
Boeing and the FAA together will find the safe solution.
Too much regulation, or too little oversight both have their downside.
An object flying at 40,000 feet at 500+ miles per hour has inherent risks. Overall the airline industry has a great track record. Trains wreck as well as cars and trucks.

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Mar 23, 2019 13:59:02   #
phlash46 Loc: Westchester County, New York
 
Fotoartist wrote:
Which regulation did they lie about complying with? Thou shall not ever crash?



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