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4 x5 negative safety
Mar 13, 2019 19:24:41   #
Artichoke
 
I have a box with a couple of hundred 4 x 5 black & white negatives dating from around 1950 that my dad took (irreplaceable family photos). It smells like vinegar. Is it safe? I assume it's not going to spontaneously combust like old nitrate motion picture stock used to, but is there a danger of some kind of deterioration happening?

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Mar 13, 2019 19:31:54   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Sounds (smells) like stop bath wasn't all washed off...
(Vinegar is diluted acetic acid.)
I don't know what the film base was in the early 50s.

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Mar 13, 2019 19:35:18   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
Artichoke wrote:
I have a box with a couple of hundred 4 x 5 black & white negatives dating from around 1950 that my dad took (irreplaceable family photos). It smells like vinegar. Is it safe? I assume it's not going to spontaneously combust like old nitrate motion picture stock used to, but is there a danger of some kind of deterioration happening?


Does it read SAFETY FILM along the edge? If not it might be Cellulose Nitrate still camera cut sheet film. But the vinegar smell is more likely decomposing Acetate film. Was it stored in a damp environment? That is bad too as your negatives may be decomposing.

You should seek out more information on this, possibly from professional film archivists. If and when you can work with them you should Scan them ASAP!

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Mar 14, 2019 06:11:07   #
kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy
 
Probably just remnants of hypo. In the 50s nitrate films were long gone.

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Mar 14, 2019 11:43:40   #
Paul J. Svetlik Loc: Colorado
 
You can always wash it to extend the life of those negatives.

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Mar 14, 2019 12:01:49   #
redlegfrog
 
Artichoke wrote:
I have a box with a couple of hundred 4 x 5 black & white negatives dating from around 1950 that my dad took (irreplaceable family photos). It smells like vinegar. Is it safe? I assume it's not going to spontaneously combust like old nitrate motion picture stock used to, but is there a danger of some kind of deterioration happening?


If they are valuable to you, you should think about scanning and digitizing them. Just incase!

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Mar 14, 2019 13:28:11   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
Negatives for the 1950s would not be on nitrate based film stock. Besides being dangerously unstable, nitrate film hada propensity for decomposition and with age, can turn into a white powder-like substance. This was an issue with old film stored in "cans" in vaults and archives.

Latent chemicals in film can off-gas and cause odors. Acetic acid is a component of stop bath and certain fixers, however, if the film was not properly washed, after 60 some years there wold be some signs of discoloration, stains or fading. Another sign of processing errors is a noticeable bluish tint the the negatives which indicates that the antihalation coating of the film has not been washed away in the developer or the fixer.

I have some experience with large quantities of of 4x5 negatives in long term storage. One studio that I worked at had wedding negatives dating back to the late 1940s through the 1960s. Back in the day, all this work was done with 4x5 press cameras. The negatives were stored in the original 4x5 film boxes, carefully labeled and dated and kept on shelves in a store room. There were some chemical odors in the room Turned out, the negatives were all in good condition and the off gassing was from the cardboard.

So... my suggestion is to take them out of the box, spread them out in a safe place and allow them to air out. Find a new container for them. There are storage boxes made of archival acid-free material.

As others have indicated, whenever there is any suspected impurity, the possibility of latent chemicals and the resulting staining, fading or more detheoration it is wise to scan and print the images or make traditional darkroom prints if the facilities are available.

Large format film from that era is surprisingly tough stuff and the oftentimes holds up well and retains their images even if badly processed or improperly stored. It still a good idea to convert theses images to electronic media and print them out for long term access. It is unlikely that you smelly negatives will spontaneously combust or explode.

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Mar 14, 2019 18:39:04   #
Darkroom317 Loc: Mishawaka, IN
 
This is hopefully not the case. The vinegar smell likely is remnant chemicals in the film because of improper washing. However, a strong vinegar smell can be a sign of decay in the cellulose acetate film base.

https://www.filmpreservation.org/preservation-basics/vinegar-syndrome

https://www.nfsa.gov.au/preservation/preservation-glossary/vinegar-syndrome

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Mar 14, 2019 20:05:25   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
Darkroom317 wrote:
This is hopefully not the case. The vinegar smell likely is remnant chemicals in the film because of improper washing. However, a strong vinegar smell can be a sign of decay in the cellulose acetate film base.

https://www.filmpreservation.org/preservation-basics/vinegar-syndrome

https://www.nfsa.gov.au/preservation/preservation-glossary/vinegar-syndrome


I learn new information all the time. VINEGAR SYNDROME is new one for me but it certainty sounds like the right diagnosis based on the OP's description of the ouder and the detailed data in the link. Since it is degenerative and unstoppable, the images should be scanned as soon as possible. Thanks for the link!

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Mar 15, 2019 12:25:25   #
speters Loc: Grangeville/Idaho
 
Artichoke wrote:
I have a box with a couple of hundred 4 x 5 black & white negatives dating from around 1950 that my dad took (irreplaceable family photos). It smells like vinegar. Is it safe? I assume it's not going to spontaneously combust like old nitrate motion picture stock used to, but is there a danger of some kind of deterioration happening?

If it smells like vinegar, that means they are rotting and molding!

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Mar 15, 2019 19:16:21   #
Artichoke
 
Quality wise, these negatives seem totally normal. Very durable, no brittleness, staining, streaking, fading or anything. Just the vinegar smell. A thorough washing of the ones I definitely want to save is a good idea. Thanks for everyone's input!

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Mar 15, 2019 21:01:01   #
Bipod
 
redlegfrog wrote:
If they are valuable to you, you should think about scanning and digitizing them. Just incase!

Digital data lasts as long as .com companies do.

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Mar 15, 2019 21:58:02   #
Bipod
 
Artichoke wrote:
I have a box with a couple of hundred 4 x 5 black & white negatives dating from around 1950 that my dad took (irreplaceable family photos). It smells like vinegar. Is it safe? I assume it's not going to spontaneously combust like old nitrate motion picture stock used to, but is there a danger of some kind of deterioration happening?

Your question is about conservation of photographs, so you should be asking a
photograph conservator. Most large museums can refer you to one.

Sounds like those negatives are suffering from "vinegar syndrome". This happens when
cellulose triacetate stock breaks down though a process of deacetylation. It is safe to you,
but the images are in danger of being lost forever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_stock
https://www.filmpreservation.org/preservation-basics/vinegar-syndrome

Immediate action may be necessary to save them. Generally, cold storage is the
only solution once vinegar syndrome has set in. Howeer, cold storage must be done properly.
https://www.archives.gov/preservation/storage/negatives-transparencies.html
https://albumenworks.wordpress.com/2013/07/17/negative-deterioration-part-two-cellulose-acetate-negative-conservation/

As a "fist aid" measure, you should remove the negatives from any contact with wood pulp
paper (nearly all paper made in the last 120 years). Attempts to buffer such paper with alkalai
(often sold as "non acid paper" or "archival") are temporary at best. No wood pulp paper is
truly permanent. Eventually, it will attack itslf and negatives it is in contact with. And the
alkalai added to buffer the paper can leech out and cause problems.

If any negative is in a paper envelope, you should move it to a plastic sleeve.
Negative holder sheets are available for most negative sizes. If there is a caption or date
written on the paper, then it can be folded to fit in one of the sleeves next to the photo it
refers to. Be careful not to toch the surface of the negatives---conservators usually
wear white cotton gloves (available as disposable gloves for artists).

All film should be stored in an environment that is:
* as cold as possible
* neither too damp nor too dry
https://www.filmpreservation.org/preservation-basics/film-decay-and-how-to-slow-it

These requirements are somewhat difficult to fulfill simultaneously. It is better to err
on the side of too dry than on the side of too damp.

I store old negatives in my freezer in a sealed plastic container together with:
* an acativated carbon packet to absorb any acetic acid gas
* a silica gel dessicant pack

These are available from many sellers, you coudl try Amazon.com.
These will need to be changed periodically.

I like the clear packets containing blue silica gel that turns red when it needs
to be "recharged" by baking. (follow the manufactuer's instructions).

I'm sorry the news isn't better. But just getting them out of paper envelopes
and moving them to a cooler place in the house is a step in the right direction.

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