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Cold Weather and Electric Cars, Part 2
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Feb 11, 2019 06:11:24   #
Manglesphoto Loc: 70 miles south of St.Louis
 
davefales wrote:
There have been quite a few views (over 3000) of my posting from zerohedge.com last Monday about the problems electric cars faced during the polar vortex. A few comments were the not-unexpected ad-hominem type insinuating you should not trust a "right-wing" site.

That is unfortunate because the unveiling of the Green New Deal this week suggests it is time to have an honest debate about the tradeoffs involved in ridding the world of carbon emissions.

I suspect few would consider the American Automobile Association and CNBC to be right wing sites. It is hard to imagine running a car in -20F conditions without wanting some internal heat.

For your further understanding:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/06/aaa-confirms-what-tesla-bmw-nissan-ev-owners-suspected-of-cold-weather.html

AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range. Even turning on the car drains power

The AAA study appears to be the first to have used standard, repeatable methodology to confirm the problem.

AAA tested the BMW i3s, the Chevrolet Bolt EV, the Nissan Leaf, the Tesla Model S and the Volkswagen e-Golf.
Paul A. Eisenstein | @DetroitBureau
Published 16 Hours Ago Updated 1 Hour Ago
CNBC.com


Hoping to increase the appeal of their battery-electric vehicles, automakers have begun rolling out an assortment of "long-range" models, such as the Tesla Model 3, Chevrolet Bolt EV, Jaguar I-Pace and Nissan Leaf Plus.

Under ideal conditions, these products can deliver more than 200 miles per charge and, in some cases, even 300. But as many owners discovered last week as winter storms slammed much of the country, cold weather does not qualify as "ideal." A new AAA study finds that when the thermometer dropped to 20 degrees Fahrenheit, range fell by an average of 41 percent on the five models it tested.

"We found that the impact of temperature on EVs is significantly more than we expected," said Greg Brannon, AAA's director of automotive engineering.

Some EV drivers — including this correspondent — recently found that range can drop by half when the mercury tumbles into negative territory. The AAA study appears to be the first to have used standard, repeatable methodology to confirm the problem and compare the effect of winter temperatures on different models.

Several surprises emerged from the research, according to Brannon, starting with the fact that the impact on range was pretty much uniform among the cars tested: the BMW i3s, the Chevrolet Bolt EV, the Nissan Leaf, the Tesla Model S and the Volkswagen e-Golf.

"It's something all automakers are going to have to deal with as they push for further EV deployment because it's something that could surprise consumers," said Brannon.

Different factors can affect the loss of range, he and other experts have noted. Simply turning on the electric vehicles AAA studied in 20 degree weather revealed a 12 percent loss in range. On a vehicle like the Chevy Bolt, with an EPA rating of 238 miles per charge, that would drop range to 209 miles. But that part of the test assumed operating the vehicle with cabin heat and seat heaters turned off.

Brannon said using climate control revealed an even bigger surprise: Range dipped by an average 41 percent — which would bring an EV like the Bolt down to just 140 miles per charge.

The problem is that unlike a car with an internal combustion engine that can warm the cabin with waste heat, EVs have to tap into their batteries to power the climate control system.

Part of the problem, he said, is that "lithium-ion batteries like the same sort of temperatures that we do, around 70 degrees."

Much below that and the chemistry that's used to store energy runs into various problems. Among other things, battery components develop increased resistance that limits how much power they can hold, as well as how fast a battery pack can be charged or discharged, said Timothy Grewe, chief engineer for electric propulsion systems at General Motors.

Grewe has experienced sharp reductions in the range of his own Chevy Bolt, but he also said there are ways to limit the impact of cold weather. That includes storing a battery car in a garage, preferably one that's heated. And wherever it is parked, it helps to keep the EV plugged in. Onboard electronics will prevent overcharging. But many battery vehicles are programmed to use some of the energy from the grid to keep the battery pack warm, improving its efficiency.

Motorists are also advised to "precondition" their EVs, Grewe and Brannon said. That means heating up the cabin while still connected to the grid, rather than drawing energy from the battery pack. Most new battery-electric vehicles have custom smartphone apps that allow a driver to switch on cabin heat remotely when plugged in. Commuters can even preprogram the system to automatically start at a particular time of day.

While cold weather is especially hard on range, batteries also don't like hot weather, said Brannon. "Much like when it's cold, in hot weather EVs suffer some decrease in range, but not as much as in the cold."

The AAA study found range fell 4 percent from EPA numbers at 95 degrees. But, again, that number was assuming the motorist didn't mind sweating. Turn the climate control system down to 70 degrees, AAA found and range fell by 17 percent.

Tesla emailed a statement that disputed AAA's findings, saying the report exaggerates the impact that cold weather has on its electric vehicles' range. The company didn't provide data saying how much range is lost in cold temperatures.

"Based on real-world data from our fleet, which includes millions of long trips taken by real Model S customers, we know with certainty that, even when using heating and air conditioning, the average Model S customer doesn't experience anywhere near that decrease in range at 20 degrees Fahrenheit," the company said in a statement. "And the decrease in range at 95 degrees Fahrenheit is roughly 1 percent."

One thing that EVs and conventional vehicles have in common is that energy efficiency — whether measured by range or miles per gallon — can be affected by a variety of factors. These can include your driving style, as well as the terrain.

Do a lot of hill climbing and you're going to use energy faster. EVs, however, are especially sensitive to any accessory drawing power, whether the car's climate control or even headlights, meaning that driving at night, whatever the weather, will hurt range.
There have been quite a few views (over 3000) of m... (show quote)

After reading all of the comments here I have a few questions: How do you produce the electricity to charge all of these batteries? and what happens to the "emissions" produced by the batteries as they discharge?
What happens to all of the worn out batteries?
It goes on and on, I am thinking I won't be around to see the solution.

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Feb 11, 2019 06:59:38   #
rlv567 Loc: Baguio City, Philippines
 
krashdragon wrote:
Just wondering, if all these people thinking electric cars are so great, ever learn where and how the chemicals that make the batteries come from? Or the electricity..... Sometimes... not so green...


Some are just stupid, but many are agenda driven and "see" only that which fits their narrative!!!!!

Loren - Baguio City

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Feb 11, 2019 08:04:39   #
2Dragons Loc: The Back of Beyond
 
Interesting information. I have never been a fan of electric cars as the energy that it takes to charge them is still an air pollutant that the EV proponents conveniently overlook. And there is that temperamental temperature problem as stated in the story. As far as I can see the Prius is about as "green" as it is going to get until they can come up with cars that can generate their own electrical needs while running. A pie-in-the-sky perpetual motion machine. I'm sure it will happen sometime in the future, I just don't know if I will see it.

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Feb 11, 2019 08:48:06   #
paulrph1 Loc: Washington, Utah
 
Hal81 wrote:
Problem solved. Use a very long extention cord.


I have a problem with a neighbor who swears by his electric chain saw. I have one and it is gas driven (would I have to replace that one too) but he still thinks I am nuts but when I go to the mountains to cut wood I told him I would have a hard time running a 20 mile long extensions cord. But I live 70 miles away. Maybe I could find a local that would allow me to plug in.
Too funny, Hal.

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Feb 11, 2019 08:52:40   #
paulrph1 Loc: Washington, Utah
 
[quote=TriX]No. As much as I love internal combution engines, there is a finite end to the supply of natural gas and fossil fuels, and the move to electric vehicles is inevitable, maybe not immediately, but eventually.

But the greenies want to eliminate air travel and restrict travel to trains or staying home. No sense in using what we have for practical purposes. But then I do believe many waste to much energy when it should not be done.

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Feb 11, 2019 08:57:45   #
sodapop Loc: Bel Air, MD
 
No more petroleum products after 12 years according to new proposed Green program. How is that going to work our since virtually everything is made from in part and transported via fossil fuels. (Natural gas is also a fossil fuel)Including batteries and electricity.

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Feb 11, 2019 09:06:38   #
paulrph1 Loc: Washington, Utah
 
sodapop wrote:
No more petroleum products after 12 years according to new proposed Green program. How is that going to work our since virtually everything is made from in part and transported via fossil fuels. (Natural gas is also a fossil fuel)Including batteries and electricity.


And we still have global warming, er, climate change but Gore still flies his private jet. Somehow that only seems to apply to the other guy.

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Feb 11, 2019 09:15:26   #
OlinBost Loc: Marietta, Ga.
 
This is why I prefer the Hybrid. Depending on how you drive you can get excellent mileage from the battery but when the battery is low or you extra power the gas engine is there. Plus you get better overall mileage. It is difficult to envision taking a trip in an all electric car.

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Feb 11, 2019 09:20:10   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
davefales wrote:
Sadly, desire to save the world can put up some barriers to common sense...and due diligence. Part of the reason EVs have gotten as far as they have was the healthy government subsidies. That persuaded people not to conduct the cost/benefit analysis they should have.


When my son was shopping for his last two cars, I compared MPG and cost of a Honda Fit and a Prius. Although the Prius gets great mileage, and owners love them, it would take him many years to break even, considering the higher price of the Prius. Government subsidies helped to even out costs, but now that they're gone, saving money means buying the cheaper vehicle. We decided that the Fit would be more practical and economical. Saving money is often expensive.

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Feb 11, 2019 09:21:03   #
exakta56 Loc: Orford,New Hampshire
 
The idea of looking for solutions which will address and reduce the earth's rising temperature should be acceptable to everyone. In the attempt to solve this issue, errors will be made, however the intent and focus will bring us closer to a solution. We must try, as our planet depends on it.

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Feb 11, 2019 09:22:18   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
paulrph1 wrote:
And we still have global warming, er, climate change but Gore still flies his private jet. Somehow that only seems to apply to the other guy.


He doesn't have a private jet.

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Feb 11, 2019 09:55:30   #
Pro1
 
Globe warming is a lie, and the proposed Green program by the left (i.e. the Dems) who want to kill cows because they create gas tells us something I can say on this site. Electric golf carts, electric shopping carts, and wheelchairs provide a benefit but cars?

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Feb 11, 2019 10:10:42   #
davefales Loc: Virginia
 
jerryc41 wrote:
He doesn't have a private jet.


Anyone know if he still flies on someone else's private jet these days? He definitely did in the past.

Reply
Feb 11, 2019 10:10:43   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
paulrph1 wrote:
I have a problem with a neighbor who swears by his electric chain saw. I have one and it is gas driven (would I have to replace that one too) but he still thinks I am nuts but when I go to the mountains to cut wood I told him I would have a hard time running a 20 mile long extensions cord. But I live 70 miles away. Maybe I could find a local that would allow me to plug in.
Too funny, Hal.


I agree, but some of the very light higher voltage battery powered saws are very useful for small jobs. I have an 029 Stihl Farm Boss that weighs about 12 ins, has always been a bitch to start, but is a great workhorse for big jobs. Recently, after my 2nd heart attack, I picked up an 18V Ryobi chain saw (I already had a Ryobi 18V hedge trimmer). I was so skeptical, I kept the box so I could return it, but after a few months, I’m convinced. Weighs about 3 lbs, short blade, and has enough energy on a single battery to cut a 4” dia., 30’ tree down and into 3’ Logs. And with a spare battery, you can do an hour’s worth of limbing, and I’m sure the higher 56 volt saws are even more powerful. Don’t get me wrong, I’m keeping my 029 and Stihl blower and weed eater for those larger jobs, but for light work, that $100 Ryobi is a great tool. Li-Ion batteries have revolutionized power tools. I use my battery powered Porter Cable drill almost daily, and since I got it, I haven’t picked up my corded Dewalt.

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Feb 11, 2019 10:24:14   #
StanMac Loc: Tennessee
 
rlv567 wrote:
Some are just stupid, but many are agenda driven and "see" only that which fits their narrative!!!!!

Loren - Baguio City


So, the “greenies” have an agenda and the “naysayers” don’t?

Stan

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