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What is flat B&W?
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Feb 4, 2019 08:40:00   #
anotherview Loc: California
 
As I understand the term "flat" as applied to a photograph, it means inadequate contrast. You can introduce more contrast using the clarity slider in Adobe Camera Raw and by other means. Typically, the right amount of tonal or color contrast will make the photograph bang out more.

Your photograph here could use a little more contrast for better effect.
melueth wrote:
When i first went colorblind, ( ) i posted a B&W here and was told that it seemed flat . . . i'm tweaking things much more now, and i think i get the definition, but i'm still a little unsteady about it. Is there a good definition of flat as it applies to B&W photography, or is it more intuitive - you either 'get it' or you don't? Here's another that i recently drained the color out of. Thoughts?

Marylea

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Feb 4, 2019 11:28:26   #
Kozan Loc: Trenton Tennessee
 
melueth wrote:
When i first went colorblind, ( ) i posted a B&W here and was told that it seemed flat . . . i'm tweaking things much more now, and i think i get the definition, but i'm still a little unsteady about it. Is there a good definition of flat as it applies to B&W photography, or is it more intuitive - you either 'get it' or you don't? Here's another that i recently drained the color out of. Thoughts?

Marylea


I would define FLAT as lacking in contrast. Usually you would want some black, some white, and some middle tones. It's just, in my opinion, a more pleasing photo.

Kozan

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Feb 4, 2019 11:54:44   #
magnetoman Loc: Purbeck, Dorset, UK
 
I’m late to the party as usual and a lot has been written - too much to catch up on - but to answer your question, I’d say it comes down to contrast, including mid-range tonal contrast. This is easily adjusted in Lightroom using the clarity slider to taste. Might be worth a shot.

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Feb 4, 2019 12:25:28   #
srt101fan
 
R.G. wrote:
Instead of the word "flat", my preference is the expression "wishy-washy", which of course explains everything .

As is usually the case it's a question of degree. For some people the whole point of moving to B&W is to bring out the visual drama in a scene. The main way to do that is to add contrast, and for some people it doesn't take much contrast, but for others it needs to be ramped up considerably. There's no right and wrong, but at the same time the words "suitable" and "appropriate" and "tasteful" don't lose their meaning in that scenario.

With just about any adjustment you can think of there will be a point beyond which the effect starts to look excessive for one reason or another, and overcooking is one of the most common mistakes in PP, especially for beginners. Some might argue that it's always a matter of personal preference, but if someone's preferences leave them in a group of 1 they need to consider if perhaps their preferences (i.e. tastes) could do with a bit of refining. Yes I know - it is all relative and it is a matter of taste, but if someone's adjustments look more like mistakes than improvements it's time for them to do a re-assessment of what they want to achieve.

Pushing adjustments is something that can be done for effect, but it's only in specific instances that we want specific effects. What we are discussing here is general guidelines for producing an outcome that achieves the purpose of converting to B&W in the first place.

Any beginner's tastes will be undeveloped compared to those of an afficionado and there's no shame in learning from those who have more experience and skill. The simple fact is good editing produces good results and it's possible for editing to produce results that nobody is going to consider good. I'm going to hazard a guess that nobody wants that second outcome. So maybe it's an oversimplification to say "It's all relative and therefore all outcomes are legitimate".

So are we agreed that some outcomes are desirable while some are not so desirable? So now we can consider what a desirable outcome is (and how to achieve it)....

A common result of adding contrast is that the darks can become too solid and too predominant, so you need to be able to take steps to mitigate that outcome. And the same thing applies to the highlights. One way to do that is to use the Brightness, Whites, Highlights, Shadows and Blacks sliders. However, some prefer the Curves tool. The Clarity tool can be used to add vividness but its effects can quickly become extreme and difficult or impossible to mitigate, so it needs to be used with a light hand, and typically towards the end of the workflow. Sharpening can also be used to increase vividness, but it too can be overdone, and it needs to be done alongside denoise.

Where contrast is concerned, the luminosity spectrum goes from pure black to pure white with all shades of grey in between. That spectrum covers all of the tonal possibilities so we have to work within its limitations. One implication of that is that there's always a limit to how much contrast can be implemented in a B&W conversion, so sometimes we have to choose where on the luminosity spectrum to put the most contrast. Adding contrast basically means stretching the distribution of darks and brights, and since the spectrum is limited, there's always a limit to how much the tonal distribution can be stretched. What we can do is stretch specific parts of the spectrum, which will result in an increase in contrast in that particular part of the spectrum.

Put more simply, once the tonal distribution has been stretched to its limits you can add extra contrast in the darks or the mid-tones or the brights (but at the expense of contrast in the other parts of the spectrum). Where you place the extra contrast on the spectrum is the PP editor's choice, as is the choice of location for the extra contrast. That is part of the creative expression that a PP editor has at their disposal. To that we can add the choice of overall brightness and the overall distribution of brightness/darkness.
Instead of the word "flat", my preferenc... (show quote)


R.G. - Very helpful and much appreciated guidance that I can use in my post-processing learning efforts. When I read your and others' comments re contrast I got to wondering how high- and low-key photos would fit into this discussion. For those kind of images it's mostly an issue with lighting but PP adjustments could also play a significant role, no? But that might be better left to a separate discussion....

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Feb 4, 2019 12:33:09   #
Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington
 
srt101fan wrote:
... I got to wondering how high- and low-key photos would fit into this discussion. For those kind of images it's mostly an issue with lighting but PP adjustments could also play a significant role, no? But that might be better left to a separate discussion....
Please continue this discussion at
https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-577019-1.html

.

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Feb 4, 2019 13:02:28   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
srt101fan wrote:
R.G. - Very helpful and much appreciated guidance that I can use in my post-processing learning efforts. When I read your and others' comments re contrast I got to wondering how high- and low-key photos would fit into this discussion. For those kind of images it's mostly an issue with lighting but PP adjustments could also play a significant role, no? But that might be better left to a separate discussion....


Some people will tell you that setting a white point and a black point is part of their workflow, and they'll diligently do it for every edit. The simple fact is that some scenes don't have a pure black and some don't have a pure white, and trying to force either can lead to less than optimal results. Apart from that, if you want a high-key look you may not want a pure black and if you want a low-key look you may not want a pure white. Both of those points may be especially true if you also want soft lighting. The simple fact is you need to do what suits the scene and the intended look.

Perhaps I didn't emphasise the possibility of applying extra brightness, darkness, contrast and sharpness selectively. That is probably the more common tactic in editing. They can all be used to make specific areas of a B&W more eye-catching, and therein lies the skill that's needed to create B&Ws that work well. It's possible for the viewer's attention to be led in specific directions, and led to certain areas in a specific order.

In my first post I was thinking about well-lit portraits that were taken in good light. With such a B&W the contrast will be spread fairly evenly throughout the luminosity spectrum and it may not be obvious where extra contrast can be applied for best effect. The situation is potentially frustrating because when you try to apply extra contrast to, say, the mid-tones, the contrast in the darks and brights suffers because they end up getting compressed, and as I pointed out, contrast means stretching the distribution of the different tones. But perhaps that's not a beginner's subject, and there are more basic things to concentrate on, like the possibility of applying adjustments selectively to chosen areas.

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Feb 4, 2019 13:07:10   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
Linda From Maine wrote:
Please continue this discussion at
https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-577019-1.html

.


Sorry Linda - you posted while I was typing my response.

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Feb 4, 2019 19:34:24   #
melueth Loc: Central Florida
 
Kozan wrote:
I would define FLAT as lacking in contrast. Usually you would want some black, some white, and some middle tones. It's just, in my opinion, a more pleasing photo.

Kozan


Thank you for your thoughts, Kozan.

ML

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Feb 4, 2019 19:37:44   #
melueth Loc: Central Florida
 
magnetoman wrote:
I’m late to the party as usual and a lot has been written - too much to catch up on - but to answer your question, I’d say it comes down to contrast, including mid-range tonal contrast. This is easily adjusted in Lightroom using the clarity slider to taste. Might be worth a shot.


Thanks, magnetoman! I appreciate your answer. And trust me, all sliders have been getting a workout! Still tinkering, looking for a good blend. And as a few have already pointed out, what may be appreciated by some, will be abhorred by others. Such is our glorious human condition!

Marylea

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