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In Defense of Post Processing
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Dec 22, 2018 09:08:20   #
CaptainPhoto
 
If you shoot RAW - (which is a very flat image) you need to do some post processing. End of story

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Dec 22, 2018 09:14:48   #
Tomfl101 Loc: Mount Airy, MD
 
The point is post processing is the art of photography. Point and shoot photography is just a mechanical act that any robot could do. PP is the human side of photography. We wouldn't expect a painter to render scenes exactly as they are, so why shouldn't a photographer have the same freedom of expression?

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Dec 22, 2018 09:16:27   #
camerapapi Loc: Miami, Fl.
 
I am entirely in agreement. Like it was in the past, especially with monochrome images, manipulation was needed to bring out the best in our shots. As you said, color was different and except for slide film, we were at the mercy of a "technician" in a color lab but in general we never had back what we envisioned. Digital has changed that.

It is true that many photographers overcook their files and sharpening comes to mind. Over saturating images, like Ken Rockwell does is not for me but it is popular among some photographers. Each of us should do what pleases us when it comes to manipulation although I will say that in my case I try to stick to reality. You will not see me manipulating an image to make it look weird, it is not my style. I keep sharpening to the lowest settings and no, I do not always get it right in camera. I love pastel colors and it was the D200 a great tool for that. I regret I never owned one..

I have to say that your portfolio impressed me with the quality of your work. Excellent visual design along with the exposures and selection of subjects. Your editing is impeccable. You are an artist!
We are very lucky having someone with your talent in our forum. I am looking forward to seeing more of your excellent photography.

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Dec 22, 2018 09:17:47   #
Rich1939 Loc: Pike County Penna.
 
DAN Phillips wrote:
Please don't get me started this morning. If you want to post process feel free. For me, a real photographer will do his work with a camera, not artificial intelligence. Your eye should be your darkroom and the camera the brush and paint in the hands of the artist. To each his/her own. I prefer black coffee, no sugar, no cream. When I drink water, I drink water; when I drink bourbon, I drink bourbon. To post edit is to diminish your true photgrapic ability and you learn to rely on the computer, not the camera!
Please don't get me started this morning. If you ... (show quote)


Oh my, I guess then that I have been a mislead 60 year disciple of the artificial intelligence/talent of Adams,Weston et al.

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Dec 22, 2018 09:18:01   #
JTann Loc: North East, MD
 
Nicely stated.

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Dec 22, 2018 09:23:38   #
rond-photography Loc: Connecticut
 
DAN Phillips wrote:
Please don't get me started this morning. If you want to post process feel free. For me, a real photographer will do his work with a camera, not artificial intelligence. Your eye should be your darkroom and the camera the brush and paint in the hands of the artist. To each his/her own. I prefer black coffee, no sugar, no cream. When I drink water, I drink water; when I drink bourbon, I drink bourbon. To post edit is to diminish your true photgrapic ability and you learn to rely on the computer, not the camera!
Please don't get me started this morning. If you ... (show quote)


Ah, but if the water from your spring is cloudy, do you drink it anyway or do you filter it?
I also did not say anything about using AI. Not even sure where you got that one.
The PHOTOGRAPHER will decide what exposure, crop, highlight, shadow, and sharpening to apply (and sharpening is not a correction for photographer error - it is a required adjustment due to the way a digital sensor captures the image).

My point is that we should do the same things to a digital image that we did to film images, and not shy away from them because it would prove that the photographer goofed.
Yes, if you set up the lights in a studio and arrange the subject with a perfect background, you would be remiss to produce a photo that required more than some sharpening.
But if you are shooting a landscape, or street photos, or are in any of an uncountable other situations, you have little control over the light. Some important parts of the photo will be too dark and there will be highlights that you need to bring down (the camera cannot do both at the same time). A small object will reflect light in a way that attracts your eye and detracts from the subject and overall composition, so you will need to darken it (dodging).

I have produced several photos that I rendered in black and white because of objectionable colors. In one (of a woman driving a team of horses in a pull) the woman is wearing a hi-viz green tee shirt. A man walking away behind her is wearing a hi-viz orange tee. I would have liked it in color (although it won a best of show in b&w), but when you look at it, you see a bright green spot and a bright orange spot and totally miss the story told by the photo.

I could not have reshot this after asking them to change their clothes - you are capturing a moment in time, and you cannot control all the variables - photographer: do not be ashamed because of this "shortcoming" - make your image work by some slight adjustments!

I also do not advocate working on every image you take. In a day of shooting at a wolf preserve, I take upwards of 1800 photos. I browse them as you would a contact sheet, and pick out the ones that have potential. Sometimes there are 3 to 5 and sometimes there are none. That "editing" is the most important step you can take after a shoot. Edit here means to eliminate all the blah photos and work on only the ones with potential.

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Dec 22, 2018 09:25:02   #
rond-photography Loc: Connecticut
 
DAN Phillips wrote:
Please don't get me started this morning. If you want to post process feel free. For me, a real photographer will do his work with a camera, not artificial intelligence. Your eye should be your darkroom and the camera the brush and paint in the hands of the artist. To each his/her own. I prefer black coffee, no sugar, no cream. When I drink water, I drink water; when I drink bourbon, I drink bourbon. To post edit is to diminish your true photgrapic ability and you learn to rely on the computer, not the camera!
Please don't get me started this morning. If you ... (show quote)


I challenge you: List 10 iconic photos that had absolutely NO processing adjustments made to them. I will be happy to see them, but I am not sure you can come up with 10.

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Dec 22, 2018 09:25:36   #
StevenG Loc: Long Island, NY
 
rond-photography wrote:
This is my first "new topic", and it may come across as a little bit of a rant, but I hope it helps guide some newbies.

Post Processing is dismissed by some as not being pure; the detractors feel that only photos coming out perfect in camera are acceptable.
I disagree, and I base that on over 40 years of shooting (so, yes, I have shot film!).

When I got my first SLR in 1971, I started shooting as much as I could afford - it cost money to buy the roll of film and money to get it processed (no option except to post process when you shoot film).

I was usually disappointed because my pictures never looked as I remembered the scene. Mostly, at first, I shot color print film. Skies were blown out. People were weird colors, etc.
It took me a while to figure out that part of the problem was the way labs processed the photos. When I shot transparencies (the jpeg of the film world - because it was pretty much whatever you caught on that slide was what you were stuck with, ala jpeg), I found that the camera actually could produce good photos, but the issue of color prints still bugged me.
Shooting black and white, then sending it to the lab, was no better.

Over the years, I came to find out that the award winning images that we see everywhere are NOT always Straight Out Of Camera. When I made my own darkroom, I found that there were tools such as dodging and burning that were commonly applied in a darkroom to almost every good print. Test exposures in the darkroom were the norm - you didn't just set the timer for 10 seconds and expose the paper - you made a strip test to see how long you needed to expose for the best overall image, and you saw where parts were blown out or under exposed and dodged or burned those areas, maybe even applying a vignette.

Color was trickier since home processing was less forgiving than black & white, but I tried it, and had moderate success (color correction was tricky and I never spent enough time or money to get that perfect).

Ultimately, I found that certain labs (not my corner drug store) could produce excellent prints from my negatives and stuck with them from then on.

In the digital world, we apply the term "Photo Shopped" to many images (but it should be post processing, since we don't all use PS any more than all photocopier machines are Xerox copiers). It is often used in a derogatory manner, sometimes deservedly so. It is definitely possible to over process a photo and make it look unnatural. This can be done to advantage for some subjects, but if every photo you take looks "crunchy", you might be overdoing it.
It is better to keep it simple and just use the techniques that were most often used (and most easily understood) in the analog darkroom.

I contend that you MUST post process. Otherwise, you will get those blah photos that the film users among us have seen again and again.
As the photographer, you owe it to yourself and your audience to process those photos in the best lab (your own), and not just take what the camera produces.
It is rare that I have taken a photo and simply exported it as a jpeg without it first requiring exposure, shadow, highlight, white balance, and sharpening adjustments at a minimum.
There have been several, out of about 100,000 digital images I have, that were good without any adjustments, but that is extremely rare.

In the digital darkroom, we use the same techniques used in the analog darkroom - dodging, burning, adjusting for the best exposure, etc.
I am a huge advocate of LightRoom because it most closely matches the analog darkroom - terms are different, but the results and techniques are the same.
PhotoShop, with masks, becomes more complicated, but also has those simple tools embedded in it, so keep it simple and make great photos,
but don't dis' post processing - it will improve your photos immensely.
This is my first "new topic", and it may... (show quote)


Post processing needs no defense. It is part of photography, whether done in a darkroom or on a computer. Many photographers pride themselves on “getting it right” straight out of camera. This shows they have good command of their camera. And, I believe it is very important. If one’s goal is to replicate a landscape or portrait, etc. exactly as it appears, then the photograph is finished at that point. If one’s skills are not expert enough to accurately reproduce the scene, (or whatever), then post processing is essential to make the photograph appear exactly as you saw it. In my opinion, however, post processing is essential in order to create a photograph that expresses the feeling or emotion that the photographer wishes the photograph to convey. This has always been done, and is just part of the photographic process. Other than showing one’s technical prowess with a camera, to reproduce a scene exactly as it appears in nature, there is no reason to believe anyone cares that a photograph is straight out of camera.
Steve

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Dec 22, 2018 09:33:53   #
dave.m
 
This topic in one form or another is a perennial chestnut! I make the following observations:

Anyone who uses a JPEG straight from the camera is using post processing. The post processing of the camera is very extensive to take the RAW data and turn it into a JPEG. That post processing is pre-conditioned by choices the photographer made - picture style, colour balance, exposure compensation to name a few. Similarly the moment someone just crops, straightens, or changes brightness (exposure) they too are post processing. Perhaps the least in-camera modified is from a smart phone?

More seriously though, there are many genres of imagery. It would be unforgivable for a photojournalist to deliberately modify an image to mislead the viewer. Similarly a Documentary photographer is surely bound to show as best s/he can the truth of the subject matter they are trying to convey.

But a fine art photographer - be it landscape or fashion or whatever, is free to portray as best they can, using whatever tools at their disposal, what they experienced or is trying to show. In that, they are no diffierent from a painter, its just there toolkit is a camera instead of a brush and paint. Adams is a past master with film. David Bailey, one of the most successful fashion photographers of recent times, seems to turn his hand to any genre and meium with ease, and has said something like he would have been just as happy to use brush and canvas but that it took too long to dry.

In our own way, some of us want to be journalists or to document what we see, others aspire to fine art to convey a mood or emotions. And many just want snapshots of events as reminders of a great day out/ party/ trip to the lake or whatver. None is right or wrong. Decide what you want and go for it is what I say.

I wish I was good enough to be fine art photographer, not for money but just so others enjoy some of my images like I do. Much of my photography is by my own definition, snapshots and is post processed with Fastone viewer for crop, shadow and highlight exposure, straightening etc in a few seconds. Every now and then I get a good one which deserves a lot more attention to turn it into something I want to hang on a wall as in this example from Bryce Canyon. Most of my photos look almost identical to tens of thousands of others and a a personal reminder of a great day out. As I was walking back to the car after the sun set carrying the tripod with camera still attached, I glanced to the left, immediately set up the tripod and took this shot. Less than a minute later, once I had 4 or 5 in the bag, I then positioned to better frame etc and the moment and light was gone. This one image had more photo-shopping than the rest from that day together: layering and masking to isolate and change exposure and contrast of the tree; masking to increase contrast and vibrance in the sky; some spot dodging; cropping, straightening; some cloning to remove litter left by another visitor etc. About the only thing not touched was colour balance and overall exposure. I ended up with an image which as near as I can remember is what I saw and experienced.

If you like it then great, if not, never mind. if it's too processed for your taste I don't care



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Dec 22, 2018 09:47:45   #
NCMtnMan Loc: N. Fork New River, Ashe Co., NC
 
It's MY photography, so what I shoot and what I do in PP is to suit me and what I want out of the shot. Never expected others to agree with it. While it's nice to have someone like my shots, it isn't the reason for taking them. It is both craft and artistic outlet for me. Same with my woodworking. Opinion of others concerning it will end up about 10% don't like it, 10% love it and the other 80% can take it or leave it. My satisfaction with my work is what matters the most to me.

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Dec 22, 2018 09:48:47   #
kdogg Loc: Gallipolis Ferry WV
 
bsprague wrote:
If anyone doubts the OP's level of photographic knowledge, abilities, etc., take a glance at is SmugMug presentation!

https://rond-photography.smugmug.com/Nothing-serious-here/i-H9B6GFd


A fabulous set of images.
Coffee beans would make a great jigsaw puzzle.

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Dec 22, 2018 09:53:59   #
Errickcameron
 
Every once in awhile my photo club runs a SOOC for a monthly theme. We get some amazing stuff. This is a good exercise to force ourselves to do, take the best possible photo without pp. First, it forces us to learn our camera. Second, a great lesson on seeing our composition and viewing the full frame before the click. Third, one will get amazing results later when they start their pp on good raw images and not junk. Can’t fix junk! I am sure Ansel made junk, we just never saw it. I am also sure that he didn’t take as much junk as we all do in this digital world.

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Dec 22, 2018 09:59:12   #
Rich1939 Loc: Pike County Penna.
 
DAN Phillips wrote:
Please don't get me started this morning. If you want to post process feel free. For me, a real photographer will do his work with a camera, not artificial intelligence. Your eye should be your darkroom and the camera the brush and paint in the hands of the artist. To each his/her own. I prefer black coffee, no sugar, no cream. When I drink water, I drink water; when I drink bourbon, I drink bourbon. To post edit is to diminish your true photgrapic ability and you learn to rely on the computer, not the camera!
Please don't get me started this morning. If you ... (show quote)


On 2nd thought
It doesn't matter a bit what we think a real photographer should or shouldn't be doing to reach the final image. It only matters how that image is accepted by the intended end user.
If the image 'works' who really cares how it got to its final version?
My car is in the shop right now for a bit of body work, when I pick it up, all that will concern me is how it looks. I will not care how it got that way.

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Dec 22, 2018 10:10:52   #
Delderby Loc: Derby UK
 
Gene51 wrote:
He "manipulated" the image even before he pressed the shutter - in other words, it was mostly planned. He would evaluate the contrast range in the scene, decide what camera settings and recipe for development he would use to maximize shadow detail without blocking up the highlights too much, and then make a contact print to figure out his dodging and burning strategy. His ability to previsualize the end result was his single most powerful talent.


And is this the same Adams who spent ten years manipulating Moonrise before he was happy with it?

But pre-visualizing the end result is the aim of SOOC fans who pre-set their cameras. (Not to be confused with JPG PPing from default settings)

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Dec 22, 2018 10:21:54   #
Kmgw9v Loc: Miami, Florida
 
srt101fan wrote:
Repeated with emphasis:

NO DEFENSE NECESSARY!



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