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GND Filters
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Sep 12, 2018 18:07:49   #
tonyi Loc: Oxford, Pennsylvania
 
Hi, starting shooting more sunsets recently and a friend said I should get a set of GND filters. Is it necessary or recommended? And if so, what do you think would be a good starter set without breaking the bank. I use a Canon T6s.

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Sep 12, 2018 18:17:43   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
Tony, I'd recommend reading a bit on Exposing to and Exposing Beyond The Right (ETTR and EBTR). Then intelligently experiment with your camera to see if your camera can handle the dynamic range and along with your processing techniques you can achieve what your hoping to capture. If it can, no need to spend the money. If it needs that little bit of help, then yes.

However, keep in mind that any filter you place on your lens, becomes part of the optical system of the camera. You'll want to purchase a very good quality filter, should you go that route.
--Bob
tonyi wrote:
Hi, starting shooting more sunsets recently and a friend said I should get a set of GND filters. Is it necessary or recommended? And if so, what do you think would be a good starter set without breaking the bank. I use a Canon T6s.

Reply
Sep 12, 2018 18:29:09   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
You can use a GND to help bring out the foreground (below the horizon) more, which usually comes out very under exposed.
The GND would be like sun glasses for the sky.

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Sep 12, 2018 18:51:33   #
tonyi Loc: Oxford, Pennsylvania
 
So Longshadow, in your opinion would it be worth it?

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Sep 12, 2018 19:35:25   #
Bipod
 
tonyi wrote:
Hi, starting shooting more sunsets recently and a friend said I should get a set of GND filters. Is it necessary or recommended? And if so, what do you think would be a good starter set without breaking the bank. I use a Canon T6s.

Many good photographers use GNDs for sunsets. So I'd say yes, if
you plan to shoot sunsets, sunrises or landscapes with very brightly lit skies.

Each sunset is different, but there is just about no limit to how much contrast can
be present. No camera can handle all the contrast found in nature without some
optical help.

GNDs don't work well when:
* Sun is visible above the horizon
* Horizon is not flat
* You don't line up the transistion in the filter with the one in the scene
* You insert the filter upside down (done it!)

In a typical sunset, the sun is already below the horizon and/or hidden by clouds.
The horizon is fairly level. The sky is very bright.

Without a GND, you will often be faced with a choice of blown highlights in the clouds or
burned out shadows below the horizon. The latter can sometimes be fixed in post processing,
but not always. The former is never fixable. (Genreally speaking, if you can fix exposure
problems up front, you're better off. Any detail the sensor doesn't capture is gone forever.)

A few scenes benefit from simplification to areas of pure white or pure black, but usually the loss
of detail hurts the photo.

I most frequently use the two-stop, soft-transition GND filter. I'd buy this one first. It might
be all you need.

People who shoot seascapes generally favor a sharp transistion GND.

If you decide to GND, get a square one in a mount that allows you to slide it up or down.
The round, screw-in kind aren't very useful (particularly one that divides the field exactly in half
--useless).

There are three ways to go:
* Just buy the square filter and hold it over your lens (kinda tricky)
* Buy a filter holder "system" such as Lee or Cokin
* Try to find a GND filter that comes bundled with a holder

If you plan to hand hold the filter, buy a big one: it's easier to hold,
and maybe used as a plain ND filter by simply moving it up that
only the dark part is over the lens.

The Cokin and Lee systems are good but rather expensive. Many, many
filters are availble for these systems. They are great filters, however:
(1) they are *not* coated, and (2) they are made of plastic (the manufacturers
prefer to call it "resin"). Plastic scratches even more easily than glass
and threfore requires careful handing.

(On the positive side, it is sometimes possible to polish scratches
out of plastic. And plastic is much lighter than glass--which is
important with large size filters or if you have a lot of them.
And you can make your own filters to fit the holder--
important if you do special effects. Colored gels are *much*
cheaper than colored filters made of plastic or glass, and can
be adapted to fit the holder. Finally, you can't visibly flare
the lens when the sun is below the horizon, so an uncoated
surface is not as bad as sounds for sunsets and sunrises.)

Holders for these systems are available in various sizes. But the size
large enough for the filter ring of the biggest diameter lens you think you
might ever use. You can buy adapter rings ($20 or more a pop!) to use the
holder with a smaller filter size.

I own Cokin, but I've bought my P-size holder and most of my filters used.
(I used to have a dinky A-size holder.) I have adapter rings for 49 mm,
52 mm, 55 mm and 72 mm. I use it mainly for GND and effects.
If I had to do it over again and couldn't buy used, I probably get the
Lee system.

I prefer screw-on filters for the more common filters (UV, ND, etc.)
I buy 55 mm, and use adapters for smaller sizes lenses (49 mm, 52 mm).
It's a compromise.

There is one other type of filter that can help with sunsets when the
horizon is not flat: a contrast-reducing filter, such as the Tiffen
Ultra Contrast.. It works by creating invisible micro-flare.
(All lenses reduce contrast--some much more than others.)
But your blacks will not be black.

There's a perception out there that postprocessing has made filters obsolete.
This is true only of color-correction filters. Even the colored filters
intended for B&W photography can still apply to digital simulated
B&W images. (E.g., if you are using a red filter to darken the sky,
you may still need it to get the right exposure.)

All other filters (UV, ND, etc) are just as necessary with digital as with
film photography -- unless one is willing to lower one's standards.

These days, filters are under-used and misundrstood -- which is a shame.
They are very powerful and sometimes absolutely necessary to get the shot.

More info:
https://luminous-landscape.com/understanding-graduated-neutral-density-filters/
http://www.alexwisephotography.net/blog/2014/03/30/what-are-neutral-density-filters-and-how-to-use-them/

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Sep 12, 2018 20:40:10   #
tonyi Loc: Oxford, Pennsylvania
 
Bipod, that is a lot of good information. Thank you very much for taking the time to help me.

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Sep 12, 2018 20:41:56   #
tonyi Loc: Oxford, Pennsylvania
 
Rmalarz, thank you I will look into reading up on that.

Reply
 
 
Sep 12, 2018 22:34:25   #
rgrenaderphoto Loc: Hollywood, CA
 
tonyi wrote:
Hi, starting shooting more sunsets recently and a friend said I should get a set of GND filters. Is it necessary or recommended? And if so, what do you think would be a good starter set without breaking the bank. I use a Canon T6s.


If you want to extend your capabilities, a set of 3x and 6x graduated neutral density filters is a great addition to your toolbox. I only use rectangular GND, so I can adjust the graduated portion of the filter to suit the composition.

I would suggest looking on Ebay for a used set of Lees with a filter holder. The adapter ring will have to match the filter thread of your lens.

Reply
Sep 12, 2018 22:56:03   #
amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
 
tonyi wrote:
Hi, starting shooting more sunsets recently and a friend said I should get a set of GND filters. Is it necessary or recommended? And if so, what do you think would be a good starter set without breaking the bank. I use a Canon T6s.


Forget about Graduated ND filters. They were necessary with film, but aren't with digital.

Inexpensive GNDs are plastic and uncoated, so they will be especially problematic shooting sunsets or sunrises, with the bright sun in the image. Glass, multi-coated GND filters start around $100 each.

Round, screw-in Grad ND filters are a waste of money. They have their "horizon line" right across the middle, forcing you to always place the horizon in exactly the same place with every image you take. (Not to mention, the filter's "horizon line" is straight across too... and very few horizons I've photographed have been precisely straight. Most have a tree, a mountain or something.)

The only Grad NDs that are worth having... for use with film... are the oversize, rectangular type that fit into a filter holder that mounts to the front of the lens, allowing the filter to be slid up or down or even rotated a little, as needed to match the horizon as you'll be placing it within your image. Typical strengths we used with film were -1 stop and -2 stop... occasionally, but more rarely, -3 stop. They also come in "soft" and "hard" transition. The soft are usually used on wide angle lenses, while the hard transition are used on telephotos.

In fact, you'll see added flare (veiling and ghost artifacts) in your sunrise/sunset images with any filter... but the uncoated plastic ones will be among the worst. Best to remove any and all filters when shooting sunsets/sunrises. The oversize, rectangular filters also are difficult or impossible to shade with any sort of lens hood.... which also will add to the flare problems (I've used my hat at times, to shade the filter... though I've also got an adjustable, bellows style lens hood).

Since shooting digitally for nearly 15 years now... I've hardly used my Grad NDs. I probably should sell them... but keep thinking I might want to shoot something with film sometime and may need them. So they are still gathering dust someplace around here.

You can do a far better job with digital images simply making multiple, bracketed exposures and learning to combine them in post-processing software, using layers & masks or HDR techniques.

Use Aperture Priority mode (so the shutter speed changes, not the aperture) and bracket your images.... say one shot at the camera-recommended setting, a second one that's -1 stop and a third -2 stops. You'll need to experiment with the bracket settings in different situations. (Your camera manual will tell you how to set it to bracket shots.) Then use Photoshop (or whatever) to combine the "best" part from each image. You can actually do a much better job with this, than was ever possible with film and GND filters.

Bracketing generally won't work with moving subjects. But it's also possible to multi-process a single image to "recover" part of the image, especially if it's shot RAW.

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Sep 13, 2018 01:29:51   #
Bipod
 
amfoto1 wrote:
Forget about Graduated ND filters. They were necessary with film, but aren't with digital.

Inexpensive GNDs are plastic and uncoated, so they will be especially problematic shooting sunsets or sunrises, with the bright sun in the image. Glass, multi-coated GND filters start around $100 each.

Round, screw-in Grad ND filters are a waste of money. They have their "horizon line" right across the middle, forcing you to always place the horizon in exactly the same place with every image you take. (Not to mention, the filter's "horizon line" is straight across too... and very few horizons I've photographed have been precisely straight. Most have a tree, a mountain or something.)

The only Grad NDs that are worth having... for use with film... are the oversize, rectangular type that fit into a filter holder that mounts to the front of the lens, allowing the filter to be slid up or down or even rotated a little, as needed to match the horizon as you'll be placing it within your image. Typical strengths we used with film were -1 stop and -2 stop... occasionally, but more rarely, -3 stop. They also come in "soft" and "hard" transition. The soft are usually used on wide angle lenses, while the hard transition are used on telephotos.

In fact, you'll see added flare (veiling and ghost artifacts) in your sunrise/sunset images with any filter... but the uncoated plastic ones will be among the worst. Best to remove any and all filters when shooting sunsets/sunrises. The oversize, rectangular filters also are difficult or impossible to shade with any sort of lens hood.... which also will add to the flare problems (I've used my hat at times, to shade the filter... though I've also got an adjustable, bellows style lens hood).

Since shooting digitally for nearly 15 years now... I've hardly used my Grad NDs. I probably should sell them... but keep thinking I might want to shoot something with film sometime and may need them. So they are still gathering dust someplace around here.

You can do a far better job with digital images simply making multiple, bracketed exposures and learning to combine them in post-processing software, using layers & masks or HDR techniques.

Use Aperture Priority mode (so the shutter speed changes, not the aperture) and bracket your images.... say one shot at the camera-recommended setting, a second one that's -1 stop and a third -2 stops. You'll need to experiment with the bracket settings in different situations. (Your camera manual will tell you how to set it to bracket shots.) Then use Photoshop (or whatever) to combine the "best" part from each image. You can actually do a much better job with this, than was ever possible with film and GND filters.

Bracketing generally won't work with moving subjects. But it's also possible to multi-process a single image to "recover" part of the image, especially if it's shot RAW.
Forget about Graduated ND filters. They were neces... (show quote)

When the sun is below the horizon or hidden by clouds, there is no direct light falling on the lens. So it is unlikely to have visible flare.

Flare you can't see may be a *good thing* when faced with very high contrast situation.. A bright sunset or sunrise can exceed 25 stops --
nothing can capture that. (Next time you're see one, measure it with a spot meter.) RAW image file formats supports far more stops of
contrast than image sensors do--leading to all sorts of misconceptions. To give you a comparison, at any given time, the eye can see only
about 10 stops of contrast (called its Static Contrast Range). It's not contrast we want to preserve (unless the scene is low in it), it's *detail*.

If you plan to print on paper, you will end up with even fewer stops: so it's even more important to reduce the contrast to a printable level.
No matter how you print, paper can only go from its (or the ink's) blackets black, to its brightest white.

Monitors have much more contrast, but on the non-CRT ones, the blacks are never really black--even when the image file says color 0.
Let your screenblanker blacken the entire screen, turn out the room lights, and you'll see what I mean: it still glows. So worrying about
"my blacks won't be black" if you display on a flatscreen is kinda silly: they never are.

If you look at a bunch of recent digital photos of sunsets (e.g, on flickr) very often the brightest highlights are "blown". That looks OK
when the sky is clear. But when there are clouds, especially cirrus or a "buttermilk sky", you'll notice that there are *no clouds* in the
brightest areas! The sky has cleared though the bad magic of blown highlights. You can see it in images number 4, 5 and 9 in this composite
photo (even at this low resolution):
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8084/8264676514_3fbb31ea5f_b.jpg

The images where loss of detail is most noticable, most people simply delete. Even if they delete every image they took of a scene, rarely
do they think: "I should have got that shot." But back when it cost $5 per exposure (just for the large format film), they thought about it a lot.
Losing money is a great teacher.

Nothing is *necessary* for photography: it's a matter of what you plan to do with the images. For example, if you only display on a monitor,
you don't need really sharp lenses: no one can tell the difference! And don't bother white balancing your camera for ordinary light: hardly
anyone white balances their monitor (or even has the equipment necessary to do so).

It is also a matter of what you are willing to settle for. Bright colors can distract the viewer from innumerable image flaws. Highly saturated
colors are very easy to achieve with today's technology. One sees an awful lot images "in livid color". But a sunset that does not depend
solely on flashy colors for its effect: that is something to see!

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Sep 13, 2018 07:14:51   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
tonyi wrote:
So Longshadow, in your opinion would it be worth it?

Definitely. I have one simply for that purpose. A very handy accessory at times.
Even though you can probably bring out the foreground in post processing, I'd rather work with it up front.

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Sep 13, 2018 08:35:23   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
tonyi wrote:
Hi, starting shooting more sunsets recently and a friend said I should get a set of GND filters. Is it necessary or recommended? And if so, what do you think would be a good starter set without breaking the bank. I use a Canon T6s.


I prefer regular ND filters. Info on GND below.

https://digital-photography-school.com/using-graduated-neutral-density-filters-for-landscape-photography/
https://www.techradar.com/news/best-nd-grad-filters-6-top-models-tested
https://www.nikonusa.com/en/learn-and-explore/a/tips-and-techniques/when-to-use-graduated-neutral-density-filters.html
https://mattk.com/why-graduated-neutral-density-filters-are-dead-to-me/
https://fstoppers.com/education/guide-graduated-nd-filters-and-when-use-them-landscape-photography-287522

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Sep 13, 2018 10:17:58   #
Jackaroo Loc: Canberra Australia
 
Have a look at Nisi NDG's excellent glass filters with no colour cast and has a polariser included in the mounting system. Have used these for a few years now with great results.

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Sep 13, 2018 12:16:51   #
PACSMAN Loc: MA
 
I would also recommend NISI filters. It's a great system and the filters are glass not plastic.
Jackaroo wrote:
Have a look at Nisi NDG's excellent glass filters with no colour cast and has a polariser included in the mounting system. Have used these for a few years now with great results.

Reply
Sep 13, 2018 14:10:36   #
ahudina Loc: Browns Point, WA
 
One more vote for NISI. Quality filters and mounts and great customer service.

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