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Full frame versus cropped camera
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Aug 28, 2018 20:22:25   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
gwilliams6 wrote:
Want to get those M-Disks, my LG drives will burn them. Which ones are you folks using and where are you buying them from. Cheers


I’m using 25GB and 100GB Verbatim. I buy them off Amazon from whoever has the best deal.

Cheers,
Chris

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Aug 28, 2018 20:25:35   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
tomcat wrote:
What is the source for this graph comparison? I want to see how my D3s compares to the D750--just for kicks. Thanks.


http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm
Be sure to look at the high ISO chart for the bodies you’re comparing under the graph.

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Aug 28, 2018 20:27:37   #
ken_stern Loc: Yorba Linda, Ca
 
For hardware I purchased the ASUS drive; for software I got Nero 2016; All Discs purchased from Amazon -- As for the discs themselves -- 4.7 GB are Verbatim & the 25GB are M-Disc BD
All disc purchases are based on PRICE

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Aug 28, 2018 20:31:09   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
tomcat wrote:
yeah, well there's always that situation on landscape photos, but this was an iPhone portrait of a little girl. The resulting 60" image scale-up from that iPhone image was stunning. If you were willing to live with the original DR deficiency of the RX100 sensor to begin with, then scaling it up to a larger print is not going to make any difference to you.


Unless it’s a low light situation (indoor sports, weddings, churches, concerts...) in addition to landscapes which comprise a fair percentage of many (but of course not all) photographer’s work.

BTW, I use my “little” APS Fuji for travel where weight is more important than ultimate performance. Horses for courses - whatever is the best tool for the job at hand - sometimes it’s a Japanese pull saw, sometimes a table saw.

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Aug 28, 2018 21:13:25   #
tomcat
 
TriX wrote:
http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm
Be sure to look at the high ISO chart for the bodies you’re comparing under the graph.


Thanks. I looked at all 3 of my Nikons and I was glad to see that the D3s was about the same DR as the D750 in the higher ISO ranges, >1200, that I use the D3s in----almost exclusively for low light in gyms or award ceremonies. At ISO's below 800, I use the D750 because of the weight and the better DR of course.

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Aug 28, 2018 21:34:58   #
epd1947
 
BebuLamar wrote:
In general the bigger the sensor the better quality of the image but that's in general. You must compare 2 specific cameras to determine which is better. Larger sensor may have more pixels and if the larger sensor has the same number of pixels it would give lower noise images. The larger the sensor the more expensive the camera and the camera is bigger and heavier. The better quality can be seen both on screen and in prints. The larger sensor would also give shallower depth of field when taking images with the same angle of view and same aperture. This may be a desirable or undesirable characteristic depending what you want.
If you are happy with your camera there is no need to worry about what others think.
In general the bigger the sensor the better qualit... (show quote)


Larger sensor size does not determine depth of field - at least directly. There are only three (3) things that do - aperture, camera to subject distance and focal length of the lens in use. Here is a simple experiment that can be done to prove the point. Place a subject a fixed distance from your camera - decide on a focal length to use as well as the aperture to be used. Now capture that image with a full frame camera. Changing only to a crop sensor body (not changing camera to subject distance, focal length or aperture) take another photo. How will the images differ? The image taken with the crop sensor camera will result in your subject being more prominent in the frame and will contain less of the surrounding area than in the image captured with the full frame body. Now study the main subject and objects closer to as well as farther from the camera in both images - you will clearly see that the depth of field in both images is exactly the same - the size of the sensor did not change the dof because we locked in the only three parameters that do.

So why do we have people still saying that the size of the sensor controls depth of field - it is actually because in trying to create the same framing of an image we need to either use a longer focal length lens on the full frame sensor camera, if we keep the same camera to subject distance - or - if we want to keep the same focal length we need to move closer to the subject when using the full frame body versus the crop sensor body to achieve the same image framing - using a longer focal length lens or moving in closer does result in less depth of field, all else being equal - so the best we can say is that sensor size affects our choice of focal length and/or camera to subject distance to achieve similar framing - so it is an indirect component only.

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Aug 28, 2018 21:56:16   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
epd1947 wrote:
Larger sensor size does not determine depth of field - at least directly. There are only three (3) things that do - aperture, camera to subject distance and focal length of the lens in use. Here is a simple experiment that can be done to prove the point. Place a subject a fixed distance from your camera - decide on a focal length to use as well as the aperture to be used. Now capture that image with a full frame camera. Changing only to a crop sensor body (not changing camera to subject distance, focal length or aperture) take another photo. How will the images differ? The image taken with the crop sensor camera will result in your subject being more prominent in the frame and will contain less of the surrounding area than in the image captured with the full frame body. Now study the main subject and objects closer to as well as farther from the camera in both images - you will clearly see that the depth of field in both images is exactly the same - the size of the sensor did not change the dof because we locked in the only three parameters that do.

So why do we have people still saying that the size of the sensor controls depth of field - it is actually because in trying to create the same framing of an image we need to either use a longer focal length lens on the full frame sensor camera, if we keep the same camera to subject distance - or - if we want to keep the same focal length we need to move closer to the subject when using the full frame body versus the crop sensor body to achieve the same image framing - using a longer focal length lens or moving in closer does result in less depth of field, all else being equal - so the best we can say is that sensor size affects our choice of focal length and/or camera to subject distance to achieve similar framing - so it is an indirect component only.
Larger sensor size does not determine depth of fie... (show quote)


The DOF changes because the CoC (circle of confusion) changes.

Canon 7D (crop) 55mm, f8, 10ft. DOF=3.08ft
Canon 7D (crop) 55mm, f8, 10ft. DOF=3.08ft...

Canon 5D3 (FF), 55mm, f8, 10ft. DOF = 5.03ft.
Canon 5D3 (FF), 55mm, f8, 10ft. DOF = 5.03ft....

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Aug 28, 2018 22:02:08   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
For an equivalent field of view of the crop body, the FL of the FF would be ~88mm:

5D3 (FF) 88mm, f8, 10ft. DOF=1.82ft.
5D3 (FF) 88mm, f8, 10ft. DOF=1.82ft....

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Aug 28, 2018 22:14:17   #
ken_stern Loc: Yorba Linda, Ca
 
TriX wrote:
For an equivalent field of view of the crop body, the FL of the FF would be ~88mm:


You really see that come into play (DOF) when you compare 35mm to 70mm

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Aug 28, 2018 22:41:05   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
AlfredU wrote:
Do you know that 1 inch sensor in your bridge camera is probably just over a half inch long? Check the specs and see. Manufacturers started calling it that because they used to think you measured the entire sensor housing, which they stretched to an inch somehow. This is a despicable practice in advertising that should be outlawed.


Fully aware.

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Aug 28, 2018 22:53:33   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
epd1947 wrote:
Larger sensor size does not determine depth of field - at least directly. There are only three (3) things that do - aperture, camera to subject distance and focal length of the lens in use. Here is a simple experiment that can be done to prove the point. Place a subject a fixed distance from your camera - decide on a focal length to use as well as the aperture to be used. Now capture that image with a full frame camera. Changing only to a crop sensor body (not changing camera to subject distance, focal length or aperture) take another photo. How will the images differ? The image taken with the crop sensor camera will result in your subject being more prominent in the frame and will contain less of the surrounding area than in the image captured with the full frame body. Now study the main subject and objects closer to as well as farther from the camera in both images - you will clearly see that the depth of field in both images is exactly the same - the size of the sensor did not change the dof because we locked in the only three parameters that do.

So why do we have people still saying that the size of the sensor controls depth of field - it is actually because in trying to create the same framing of an image we need to either use a longer focal length lens on the full frame sensor camera, if we keep the same camera to subject distance - or - if we want to keep the same focal length we need to move closer to the subject when using the full frame body versus the crop sensor body to achieve the same image framing - using a longer focal length lens or moving in closer does result in less depth of field, all else being equal - so the best we can say is that sensor size affects our choice of focal length and/or camera to subject distance to achieve similar framing - so it is an indirect component only.
Larger sensor size does not determine depth of fie... (show quote)


Check any DoF calculator and you'll find that the the crop sensor will have LESS DoF, not more, when all that you change is the sensor size.

Viewing distance of the print also figures into DoF, as does image magnification.

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Aug 28, 2018 23:56:51   #
chrisg-optical Loc: New York, NY
 
Gene51 wrote:
Check any DoF calculator and you'll find that the the crop sensor will have LESS DoF, not more, when all that you change is the sensor size.

Viewing distance of the print also figures into DoF, as does image magnification.


A lens is a lens is a lens - the sensor size does not change the optical characteristics of any particular lens at a given focal length - the lens spits out an image at a predetermined distance from the lens onto the focal plane (sensor) - when in focus. Imagine a hypothetical digital camera with interchangeable backs - M43, APSC, FF, MF...assume the lens can cover at least the largest sensor (MF) and that the sensor is centered on the optical axis of the lens...focus the image on the focal plane. Now change the backs - rotate through the different size sensors...does the change of the backs alter the image in any way (except for cropping of course)....does this make sense?

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Aug 29, 2018 00:34:30   #
zzzynick Loc: Colorado
 
I have 2 full frame cameras one with 11 mega pixels and another FF with 21 mp's and then a 10 mp 1.3 crop.
For me, I like the idea of bigger pixels. Quality over quantity.

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Aug 29, 2018 01:00:25   #
gwilliams6
 
TriX wrote:
I’m using 25GB and 100GB Verbatim. I buy them off Amazon from whoever has the best deal.

Cheers,
Chris


Thanks

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Aug 29, 2018 07:27:07   #
Crombie
 
Another aside is depth of focus. While isolating a subject with shallow focus is effective and FF certainly has an edge here, but for landscapes the benefits of foreground to infinity in critical focus is very welcome. The FF shooter to obtain this is forced to use small apertures with the attended image degradation... sounds like the image quality advantage has vanished. Add to this if say a shutter setting of 1/60 is needed the FF shoot wanting identical depth of focus vs MFT has to use a small aperture will have to the boost ISO... another IQ issue.

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