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Apr 4, 2018 11:07:49   #
rthompson10
 
Thinking out loud here- looking to upgrade from myCanon 7dMKii to a full frame. I've been shooting a lot of high school sports under poor lighting and getting frustrated with iso quality(lot of my pix are ~10K iso). Other dilemma is my longest lens is 70-200.
Have budget for refurb 5D MKIV or used 1DX- yes higher fps would be nice- based on reading picture quality on IV would be slightly better
Shooting indoor my 70-200 would work, outdoor limited already so more cropping or continue to use the 7D-
Not sure if I do analysis paralysis- would doing a crop of full frame vs crop frame -given more cropping on full frame(~320MM equivalent on crop) give me better picture quality?

Any other thoughts or opinions
THX

RT

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Apr 4, 2018 13:21:20   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
RT - I just spent some time reading / scanning your post history. I found a lot of references to problems and only 3 example images posted, but you failed to store the originals for closer examination. In one post you broached the idea of a mentor. You tend to be vague on the specific models of your equipment, but if you're shooting high school sports with a f/2.8 lens and an EOS 7DII and struggling with this professional-grade equipment, you probably will benefit more from training and experience rather than throwing more money at the problem.

You might be familiar with all your issues. Given I've just done this work, I suggest you too take a moment and click your user name, then click the lists of topics you've created, then read some of them again to remind yourself of your journey so far. Questions about metering, focus points, cropping, processing tools, etc. A new camera is not going to be your solution.

Almost three years ago was the suggestion to seek out a mentor, possibly from your local camera shop. I don't see from later posts that you took that idea. Although not as hands-on or interactive, posting some images here and storing the original along with some specific questions should help generate actions you can take today / tomorrow to improve your results with your current equipment. I'd like to see one of these "10K ISO" images as I expect to see a faulty choice of exposure settings where this high ISO is a symptom of an overall misguided approach. A newer full-frame will look better a higher ISOs, but if you think shooting around 10K ISO is a good idea, even with 2018 technology, you're setting yourself up for still more disappointment.

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Apr 4, 2018 15:06:48   #
rthompson10
 
Thanks for your input. And to answer your questions yes I have consulted "mentors" to get advice and guidance. I've attached a sample shot where ISO is at 10K. Only setting I probably could/ should have adjusted is my shutter speed- which was 1000. I probably can go lower with that- will need to experiment. I think I know my limitations and I'm working on them. Example in outdoor sports I'm trying for a shot that's too far for my lens- I'll try lots of crop to keep it which obviously increases grain.
Thanks again
RT
CHG_CANON wrote:
RT - I just spent some time reading / scanning your post history. I found a lot of references to problems and only 3 example images posted, but you failed to store the originals for closer examination. In one post you broached the idea of a mentor. You tend to be vague on the specific models of your equipment, but if you're shooting high school sports with a f/2.8 lens and an EOS 7DII and struggling with this professional-grade equipment, you probably will benefit more from training and experience rather than throwing more money at the problem.

You might be familiar with all your issues. Given I've just done this work, I suggest you too take a moment and click your user name, then click the lists of topics you've created, then read some of them again to remind yourself of your journey so far. Questions about metering, focus points, cropping, processing tools, etc. A new camera is not going to be your solution.

Almost three years ago was the suggestion to seek out a mentor, possibly from your local camera shop. I don't see from later posts that you took that idea. Although not as hands-on or interactive, posting some images here and storing the original along with some specific questions should help generate actions you can take today / tomorrow to improve your results with your current equipment. I'd like to see one of these "10K ISO" images as I expect to see a faulty choice of exposure settings where this high ISO is a symptom of an overall misguided approach. A newer full-frame will look better a higher ISOs, but if you think shooting around 10K ISO is a good idea, even with 2018 technology, you're setting yourself up for still more disappointment.
RT - I just spent some time reading / scanning you... (show quote)


(Download)

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Apr 4, 2018 15:26:20   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Robert, can you attach the version straight from the camera, if it was a JPEG? Your image from LR has the Canon-specific EXIF removed so I can't see the focus mode nor the focus point location. As you've already noted, a slower shutter could have lowered the necessary ISO. I'd also like to see the details that existed SOOC before the LR processing, again looking for opportunities in technique rather than equipment. If it was RAW (CR2), can you open in DPP and save a version to a jpg where the Canon EXIF should remain in the changed format.

If you're "short" when shooting outdoors with a crop-sensor, a full-frame will exasperate that situation. A better option would be a 100-400L II, that can even be 'extended' by 1.4x on your model while retaining AF. That is a cheaper investment with more tangible results as compared to a new camera body.

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Apr 4, 2018 15:58:11   #
SharpShooter Loc: NorCal
 
rthompson10 wrote:
Thinking out loud here- looking to upgrade from myCanon 7dMKii to a full frame. I've been shooting a lot of high school sports under poor lighting and getting frustrated with iso quality(lot of my pix are ~10K iso). Other dilemma is my longest lens is 70-200.
Have budget for refurb 5D MKIV or used 1DX- yes higher fps would be nice- based on reading picture quality on IV would be slightly better
Shooting indoor my 70-200 would work, outdoor limited already so more cropping or continue to use the 7D-
Not sure if I do analysis paralysis- would doing a crop of full frame vs crop frame -given more cropping on full frame(~320MM equivalent on crop) give me better picture quality?

Any other thoughts or opinions
THRT
Thinking out loud here- looking to upgrade from my... (show quote)


RT, I’ll give you my input. 1st, I don’t shoot in gyms very often.
I traded in my two 7Dmkll’™s for one 1Dx mkl. It cost me $1750 in good shape with 185K on the shutter. YES it’s better than a 7Dmkll by a long shot.
Second, 2.8 is not very fast. It’s fast for a zoom, but not for a lens.
I often use a fast prime and just give up the versatility of the zoom. I don’™t always need the whole person, a tight crop often gives big impact!
Using an f2 would drop your iso in half.
Also, your shoot at 1000th has completely frozen the frame. Can you tolorate a little movement, say the ball? That would buy you a small amount of iso.
I also shoot that kind of stuff on Auto iso, and in this case float my f-stop. The camera will shoot the lowest iso it can so some shoots could be lower iso as well!
I have the same problems you have on dark rainy days which is when I switch to fast primes, to buy myself speed or ISO or both.
A couple examples of what I shoot.
Good luck
SS


(Download)


(Download)


(Download)

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Apr 4, 2018 16:03:17   #
rthompson10
 
Try this. I understand what you are saying about the 100-400- However given I'm shooting high ISO at 2.8 and the minimum aperature is 4.5 on this one I think I'm going in the wrong direction? Unless I'm missing something


(Download)

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Apr 4, 2018 16:41:31   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
REF the 100-400L, I meant that lens as a candidate for outdoor daylight sports. Maybe I was mistaken in reading your comment and assumed better light would exist in the context of that suggestion. SS has already pointed to faster primes as an option. Your example image of the basketball player is 85mm and then cropped. A 100 f/2 and 85 f/1.8 could both be used to create this one image with a wider aperture and lower ISO even if you left the shutter at 1/1000. Personally, I'd shoot slower and allow some subject movement rather than letting the ISO run this high, say anywhere above ISO-6400. With no other change, an f/2 lens in this 1 situation could cut the ISO to ISO-5000. You'd have to judge how limiting an 85mm or 100mm prime would be to your shooting (or even down to a 50 f/1.8 or f/1.4).

I believe from SS's prior posts that he also shoots a 200 f/2L. That's not a physically small lens nor cheap, but I've never seen a poor image from that lens. I personally own a 135 f/2L and a 300 f/2.8L that are my own low-light tools, both bought used to offset (some) their shocking prices. You lose flexibility with a prime, but in situations where you're mostly zoomed to the max focal length anyway, your results from a prime at the same focal length will tend to be sharper as well as possibly having a larger max aperture. (His first biker in the mud comes from a legend of a lens, the long discontinued: EF 200 f/1.8L.)

Regarding processing, I pulled the original JPEG into LR and processed. Alas, the details are already softened by the high ISO and the in-camera processing, assuming this is the SOOC and was captured as a JPEG. If you're interested, please confirm that I can post-back that version to this thread. It's much the same, but less noise / grain in the details when viewed at 100%. I can add in the settings in LR and you can compare to your settings for ideas. Shooting in RAW would allow more control over the processing, possibly with better detail and noise processing in the final-results coming out of LR.

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Apr 4, 2018 16:52:34   #
rthompson10
 
I shoot in RAW- What I posted was SOOC but saved as JPEG- thought that's what you wanted- Yes can post back

THanks

RT

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Apr 4, 2018 17:05:43   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Here's my processing, attached and a screen capture of the two images side by side. It's a difficult balance how to retain details with cleaning noise. I'd think starting from a RAW version would offer more opportunities for both cleaner results and / or more details. I did a little bit of cloning of the background. The basic settings and noise are in the screen capture, specific to the original uncropped JPEG version.


(Download)


(Download)



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Apr 4, 2018 17:14:34   #
rthompson10
 
SS

Thanks!

RT

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Apr 4, 2018 17:47:11   #
boberic Loc: Quiet Corner, Connecticut. Ex long Islander
 
rthompson10 wrote:
Thinking out loud here- looking to upgrade from myCanon 7dMKii to a full frame. I've been shooting a lot of high school sports under poor lighting and getting frustrated with iso quality(lot of my pix are ~10K iso). Other dilemma is my longest lens is 70-200.
Have budget for refurb 5D MKIV or used 1DX- yes higher fps would be nice- based on reading picture quality on IV would be slightly better
Shooting indoor my 70-200 would work, outdoor limited already so more cropping or continue to use the 7D-
Not sure if I do analysis paralysis- would doing a crop of full frame vs crop frame -given more cropping on full frame(~320MM equivalent on crop) give me better picture quality?

Any other thoughts or opinions
THX

RT
Thinking out loud here- looking to upgrade from my... (show quote)


The best bang for the buck in FF cameras is the Pentax K1. But if you gotta lot of Canon glass that rules out that camera. But think of this. The K1 will save you about $1500 over 5D4 or 4 grand over the 1DX and that buys a lotta glass

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Apr 4, 2018 18:07:24   #
rthompson10
 
Thanks!

I appreciate the time on this

RT

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Apr 4, 2018 18:07:28   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
boberic wrote:
The best bang for the buck in FF cameras is the Pentax K1. But if you gotta lot of Canon glass that rules out that camera. But think of this. The K1 will save you about $1500 over 5D4 or 4 grand over the 1DX and that buys a lotta glass

Even more laughable than the typical brand-switch suggestion ... Supporting details available from dpreview.com for the highlighted issues that would negatively impact shooting the indoor sports / action issues experienced by the OP.



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Apr 5, 2018 07:00:13   #
crazydaddio Loc: Toronto Ontario Canada
 
Great guidance from SS and CHG_Canon who have taken the time to guide.
In answer to your specific question. 7Dmkii is great outdoor and not so much indoor.
5Dmkiv is a great all-rounder and not the best at anything (i have it and bought it for that reason).
I shoot vball and bball in gyms under variable light. For "under the basket" or "by the net" shots....I use a fast focusing 50mm1.4, 85mm1.4 and yes the 70-200f2.8. Usually ss is 1/640 and drop down for candids between plays. As SS indicated AutoISO will work well becaude the light is not varying. I keep the aperature wide open and push the ss up and down depending on the action.

The 1Dx is the right choice for how you shoot but the 5Dmkiv is newer and will give you more flexibility if you ever venture into landscapes etc for large printing. The AF is excellent also.

Post some more photos once you get going...

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Apr 5, 2018 07:31:43   #
elliott937 Loc: St. Louis
 
A most interesting set of posts. I've enjoyed reading all of them.

That said, I don't believe you could go wrong with either a new 5DIV or a used 1D. Knowing the quality of Canon DSLR (I have two 5D2 bodies), you could not go wrong in buying the used 1D. I won't want to talk to you anymore. I wouldn't mind having one of those, but I'm a teacher. No deep pockets here. But I can tell you the 5D2 forward have been amazing cameras. So you can't go wrong with either.

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